Discussion:
Rabbis Agree to Stop Sucking Little Boy's Pee Pees
(too old to reply)
El Kabong
2005-03-03 23:59:49 UTC
Permalink
PHOTO:
http://sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm

What a horrible thing to happen to a tiny baby, a man cuts your
little pee pee, then sucks on it.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=8&u=/nm/20050303/hl_nm/religion_circumcision_dc

U.S. Rabbis OK Sucking Circumcision Blood from Tube

Thu Mar 3,11:52 AM ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Rabbis should use a tube to suck blood from
circumcision wounds rather than sucking directly with their mouths to
protect infants and rabbis from disease, the leading Orthodox
rabbinical group said on Thursday.


In a traditional Orthodox practice during the bris, or circumcision
ritual of baby boys, rabbis have been using their mouths to suck blood
from the penis wounds and surrounding tissue for thousands of years.


The use of a sterile tube is an acceptable substitute for direct mouth
contact based upon a review of science and religious writings and
Torah authorities, said Rabbi Basil Herring of the Rabbinical Council
of America, which sets policies for and represents about half of
America's Orthodox rabbis as well as sponsoring a Jewish court.

"We strongly urge rabbis and congregations to adhere to this method,"
said Herring, who added that it's possible that the preference may not
be adopted by all Orthodox rabbis as leaders in the Jewish religion
often have different views.

The traditional practice has been under scrutiny after New York City
health officials went to court late last year to stop a rabbi from
performing the practice they believe may have led to the death of a
baby boy from herpes.

The baby was one of three infants health officials said contracted
herpes simplex virus after being circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok
Fischer, who used his mouth to draw blood from the infant's wound.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
El Kabong
2005-03-15 13:35:00 UTC
Permalink
PHOTO from the Jerusalem Post Magazine:
http://sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm

The rabbi is sucking on a baby boy's penis.
Did you know it is a common practice?


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=8&u=/nm/20050303/hl_nm/religion_circumcision_dc

U.S. Rabbis OK Sucking Circumcision Blood from Tube

Thu Mar 3,11:52 AM ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Rabbis should use a tube to suck blood from
circumcision wounds rather than sucking directly with their mouths to
protect infants and rabbis from disease, the leading Orthodox
rabbinical group said on Thursday.


In a traditional Orthodox practice during the bris, or circumcision
ritual of baby boys, rabbis have been using their mouths to suck blood
from the penis wounds and surrounding tissue for thousands of years.


The use of a sterile tube is an acceptable substitute for direct mouth
contact based upon a review of science and religious writings and
Torah authorities, said Rabbi Basil Herring of the Rabbinical Council
of America, which sets policies for and represents about half of
America's Orthodox rabbis as well as sponsoring a Jewish court.

"We strongly urge rabbis and congregations to adhere to this method,"
said Herring, who added that it's possible that the preference may not
be adopted by all Orthodox rabbis as leaders in the Jewish religion
often have different views.

The traditional practice has been under scrutiny after New York City
health officials went to court late last year to stop a rabbi from
performing the practice they believe may have led to the death of a
baby boy from herpes.

The baby was one of three infants health officials said contracted
herpes simplex virus after being circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok
Fischer, who used his mouth to draw blood from the infant's wound.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Confidential
2005-03-15 19:21:37 UTC
Permalink
That looks so barbaric.
Post by El Kabong
http://sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm
The rabbi is sucking on a baby boy's penis.
Did you know it is a common practice?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=8&u=/nm/20050303/hl_nm/religion_circumcision_dc
Post by El Kabong
U.S. Rabbis OK Sucking Circumcision Blood from Tube
Thu Mar 3,11:52 AM ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Rabbis should use a tube to suck blood from
circumcision wounds rather than sucking directly with their mouths to
protect infants and rabbis from disease, the leading Orthodox
rabbinical group said on Thursday.
In a traditional Orthodox practice during the bris, or circumcision
ritual of baby boys, rabbis have been using their mouths to suck blood
from the penis wounds and surrounding tissue for thousands of years.
The use of a sterile tube is an acceptable substitute for direct mouth
contact based upon a review of science and religious writings and
Torah authorities, said Rabbi Basil Herring of the Rabbinical Council
of America, which sets policies for and represents about half of
America's Orthodox rabbis as well as sponsoring a Jewish court.
"We strongly urge rabbis and congregations to adhere to this method,"
said Herring, who added that it's possible that the preference may not
be adopted by all Orthodox rabbis as leaders in the Jewish religion
often have different views.
The traditional practice has been under scrutiny after New York City
health officials went to court late last year to stop a rabbi from
performing the practice they believe may have led to the death of a
baby boy from herpes.
The baby was one of three infants health officials said contracted
herpes simplex virus after being circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok
Fischer, who used his mouth to draw blood from the infant's wound.
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy,
scientific, and social justice issues. I
Post by El Kabong
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Gab
2005-03-15 20:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Confidential
That looks so barbaric.
Post by El Kabong
http://sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm
The rabbi is sucking on a baby boy's penis.
Did you know it is a common practice?
WHAT ABOUT THE MUSLIM FILTH AND BARBARIC WAY THEY PERFORM CIRCUMCISSION?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=8&u=/nm/20050303/hl_nm/religion_circumcision_dc
Post by Confidential
Post by El Kabong
U.S. Rabbis OK Sucking Circumcision Blood from Tube
Thu Mar 3,11:52 AM ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Rabbis should use a tube to suck blood from
circumcision wounds rather than sucking directly with their mouths to
protect infants and rabbis from disease, the leading Orthodox
rabbinical group said on Thursday.
In a traditional Orthodox practice during the bris, or circumcision
ritual of baby boys, rabbis have been using their mouths to suck blood
from the penis wounds and surrounding tissue for thousands of years.
The use of a sterile tube is an acceptable substitute for direct mouth
contact based upon a review of science and religious writings and
Torah authorities, said Rabbi Basil Herring of the Rabbinical Council
of America, which sets policies for and represents about half of
America's Orthodox rabbis as well as sponsoring a Jewish court.
"We strongly urge rabbis and congregations to adhere to this method,"
said Herring, who added that it's possible that the preference may not
be adopted by all Orthodox rabbis as leaders in the Jewish religion
often have different views.
The traditional practice has been under scrutiny after New York City
health officials went to court late last year to stop a rabbi from
performing the practice they believe may have led to the death of a
baby boy from herpes.
The baby was one of three infants health officials said contracted
herpes simplex virus after being circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok
Fischer, who used his mouth to draw blood from the infant's wound.
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy,
scientific, and social justice issues. I
Post by El Kabong
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
El Kabong
2005-03-16 21:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Jewish extremists plot takeover of Jerusalem holy site: TV


JERUSALEM (AFP) - Jewish extremists are plotting to take over a
disputed holy site in Jerusalem in a bid to sabotage Israel's planned
withdrawal from Gaza, an Israeli television station reported.

Channel Two showed a video of the plotters, including rabbis and
far-right extremists, in a meeting to discuss ways to occupy the site
which is known as the Temple Mount to the Jews and the Noble Sanctuary
for the Muslims.

The meeting took place at a secret location inside the Old City, where
the site is also located, and involved representatives from 30 groups,
the television said.

"We must conquer the Temple Mount to abort the withdrawal plan. If
50,000 people go to the Temple Mount, our Father in heaven will see
and the (Israeli) institutions will not be able to remain
indifferent," said one participant.

The participants discussed whether to stage the action before or after
the start of the planned pullout of Israeli troops and settlers from
Gaza that is due to be launched in July and last three to four weeks.

They are to hold a "dress rehearsal" on the Temple Mount, or the
Jerusalem mosques complex that is the third holiest site for Muslims,
in three weeks time, according to the television report.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1515&e=5&u=/afp/20050316/wl_mideast_afp/mideastisraelgaza_050316204346
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Adam Helberg
2005-03-16 22:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Kabong
Jewish extremists plot takeover of Jerusalem holy site: TV
Well, we can't call the Arabs who had taken over and descrated the Jewish holy sites
extremists because it would label most mainstream Arabs as extremists.

Adam
El Kabong
2005-03-18 03:58:01 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.html
March 16, 2005
Dog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"

NOTE: Ogrish.com opposes behavior such as that below. We have provided
the US military and animal organisation PETA details regarding the
sender of this submission.
"Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq
we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis werent shooting us.
So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran
yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went
to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many
shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought
it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it
came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times....its pretty
funny."
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Group
2005-03-18 07:30:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:58:01 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
Post by El Kabong
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.html
March 16, 2005
Dog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"
NOTE: Ogrish.com opposes behavior such as that below. We have provided
the US military and animal organisation PETA details regarding the
sender of this submission.
"Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq
we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis werent shooting us.
So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran
yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went
to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many
shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought
it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it
came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times....its pretty
funny."
Is eating dogs for enjoyment any different? I was just
wondering, because they eat dogs in certain parts of the world.
El Kabong
2005-03-19 15:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Palestinians Worried at Report Jews Buy Church Land

Sat Mar 19, 7:20 AM ET


By Dan Williams

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - The Greek Orthodox Church moved to calm
Palestinian jitters over Jerusalem's future on Saturday after an
Israeli newspaper said a top church official had secretly sold key
property in the holy city to Jews.

The major land holdings of the Holy Land's oldest church have
entangled it in the Middle East conflict. Israel maintains Jerusalem
is its indivisible capital, but Palestinians want Arab East Jerusalem
-- captured by Israel along with the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the
1967 Middle East War -- as the capital of a future independent state.

The Maariv report stirred dismay among the Greek Orthodox Church's
100,000 mainly Arab followers, and prompted the Palestinian Authority
to order an official investigation.

"These lands are Palestinian lands, not lands from Crete or Greece,"
Marwan Toubasi of the Greek Orthodox Central Council told reporters.
"We call on the Greek government to intervene and facilitate the
inquiry."

Maariv said the Irineos aide alleged to have brokered the
multimillion-dollar deal had left the country. According to the church
spokesman, an arrest warrant had been issued for a former employee of
the partriarchate "for felony-level crimes."

The Greek Orthodox Church owns or leases big areas in Jerusalem,
including affluent parts of the Jewish west and the land on which
Israel's president and prime minister reside.

In recent years, pro-Zionist magnates like Irving Moscowitz of the
United States have paid top prices for homes in East Jerusalem,
including the Old City, so Israelis could move in. "This matter
clearly reveals Israel's plan to judaize Jerusalem," said Palestinian
Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie in response to the Maariv report

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
El Kabong
2005-03-20 12:33:21 UTC
Permalink
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml

What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?

The only evidence is the Bible. There are no other records describing
it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the
Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated with
King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to
match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.

There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these
archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed. Some
now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King
Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which
is described in the Bible.



As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting
New York Times; March 9, 2002

By MICHAEL MASSING

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses.
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho.
And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a
mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation
was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling
nation.


Such startling propositions - the product of findings by
archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25
years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But
there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss
them with the laity - until now.


The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5
million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new
Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60
years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an
interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology,
philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the
editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest
efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the
Bible as a human rather than divine document.


"When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about
anything," said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of "When Bad Things
Happen to Good People" and a co-editor of the new book. "Today, they
are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and
history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible."


"Etz Hayim," compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in
Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text,
a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as
the author of "The Chosen"), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic
commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by
prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll
and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology.


These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at
Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For
instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology," by Robert
Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states
that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the
story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler
says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent
in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic
overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr.
Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic
Gilgamesh.


Equally striking for many readers will be the essay "Biblical
Archaeology," by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University
in Jerusalem. "There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's
sojourn in that country," he writes, "and the evidence that does exist
is negligible and indirect." The few indirect pieces of evidence, like
the use of Egyptian names, he adds, "are far from adequate to
corroborate the historicity of the biblical account."


Similarly ambiguous, Mr. Levine writes, is the evidence of the
conquest and settlement of Canaan, the ancient name for the area
including Israel. Excavations showing that Jericho was unwalled and
uninhabited, he says, "clearly seem to contradict the violent and
complete conquest portrayed in the Book of Joshua." What's more, he
says, there is an "almost total absence of archaeological evidence"
backing up the Bible's grand descriptions of the Jerusalem of David
and Solomon.


The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less
settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David
Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to
"Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark
airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his
synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern
archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is
not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi
offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative,
including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and
the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said,
archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes
of Israel - not one shard of pottery."






http://www.giwersworld.org/history.phtml

The real history of Israel
by Matt Giwer © 2000 [October 13]

<snip>

From what has been learned by archaeologists, what few particulars
there are about Egypt in Exodus are flat out wrong. The kingdom of
Solomon simply did not exist. Despite digging by Israel there is no
sign of any Temple of Solomon. Not only that the description of
Solomon is nearly identical to that a one of the Pharaohs who is well
known, making Solomon the copy.

And the Wailing Wall that is supposed to be a remaining wall of the
second temple was identified as the wall of a 17th century cemetery
some three seconds before the researcher's archaeological research
permit was pulled. That leads to the rather clear conclusion the
entire confrontation over East Jerusalem and the so called temple
mount by the Jews is no more than a superstition which has ignited the
hostilities in the Mideast.


Despite a massive archaeological search of the Sinai Peninsula when
Israel controlled it, not one sign of the millions of people and
animals which supposedly wandered there for forty years was ever
found. Should anyone ever consider the actual distances involved
between Egypt and Jerusalem it is noted it is a leisurely five days
walk away.

Just the two million Hebrews in the Exodus would form a line three
abreast with the ranks five feet apart from the Nile to Jerusalem.
That is not counting their slaves and animals, carts of possessions or
anything else. They could have moved their possessions simply by
passing them from person to person in a bucket brigade fire chain from
Egypt to Israel.

With the collapse of the Moses story the entire foundation of Judaism,
Christianity and Islam collapses. There simply no basis for them
absent Moses. Even Abraham collapses as since there was no leaving
Egypt there was no going there in the first place. But that has been
obvious to anyone who ever bothered to critically consider the story.

The story goes that seventy-seven of Joseph's relatives went to Egypt
from what is now Iraq. In a miracle of procreation they grew to 2
million in a bit over four hundred years. Yet they speak a language
native to the region of Palestine rather than Egyptian or the language
of ancient Iraq. And that language was never their native language.
That is like expecting Blacks in America to speak their native Africa
languages.

In addition to not speaking Egyptian there is no evidence of any
borrowed words from Egyptian which is truly remarkable. Nor is there
any indication of any talent, skill, or knowledge from Egypt. In fact
was archaeologists do find in the region is a quite primitive culture
with some indication the people were originally nomads, Bedouins, who
attacked and defeated the cities and settled down.

Where they came from and where they got their religion we don't know
yet. Genetic research has found those who claim to be the priests and
those who do not make that claim came from different places as the
priests have a distinctive genetic marker that could only have
developed in reproductive isolation. The book of Ezra does include
importing the religion to the region.

It is also about that time of Ezra that archaeologists find signs of
images being defaced which indicates the destruction of the old
polytheist religion. And that coincides with the time of the rise of
monotheist cults such as Zoroaster and Mithra.

Archaeologists have confirmed the people were polytheists as the Bible
says in no uncertain terms. The first commandment says clearly, no
other gods and not false gods or any other terms which would indicate
he was the only god. The term 'lord god' in the Old Testament is a
false translation of 'Yahweh Elohim.' A more correct translation is
Yahweh (personal name) of the Gods. Note the Elohim related to israEL.

Sacrificial altars are found all over the region. As inscription
referring to Astarte as the consort of Yahweh has been found. Solid
evidence that Astarte was worshiped by the women exists in the form of
idols of Astarte and her worship continuing at least into the middle
of the second century, about 150AD. What we find then is separate
cults for men and women. Comparing that to what the Old Testament is
constantly ranting about and we see it bears no relationship to the
facts.

In other words the religion we know as Judaism was not created until
sometime around or after the time of Ezra save the Astarte cult
continued well into the second century AD and not in secret but was
widespread and many places in Jerusalem. This is known by the idols of
Astarte which have been found frequently and commonly "in the shadow
of" the Temple Mount.

From carefully comparing what is written in the Old Testament to the
facts as they are know suggests they were also written around the time
of Ezra which was just after the Babylonian captivity. That explains
why Pharaoh's court and priests behave like the Babylonian court and
priests instead of like those in Egypt. There is reference in Exodus
to a city in Egypt that was not built until hundreds of years after
Exodus is supposed to have taken place.

None of this is a secret. In fact it is well known to biblical
archaeologists. Unfortunately funding for research is largely raised
from people and organizations with an interest in confirming the
Bible. Therefore the researchers have one well hedged story for their
contributors and another one for professional publications.



The supposed location of Solomon's Temple has been repeated so many
times and has been featured in context of the current fighting in the
illegally occupied territories that it is quite reasonable for people
to believe it is true. It is so ingrained the reporters don't even
bother saying it is the believed or supposed location.

And as to the Wailing Wall being the remains of the second temple that
flies in the face of another commonly held belief, that the Romans
leveled the temple when the rebuilt the city. Ridiculously inefficient
to have left part of one of the walls standing. Roman completely
rebuilt the city and brought it things like running water and
sanitation. Under what conceivable circumstances would they leave just
one wall?

In another article I point out that the entire Diaspora consists
solely of the Romans prohibiting the Judeans (not all Jews just
Judeans) from living inside the rebuilt city. Yet the common belief,
which is solely pious legend, is that they were forced to leave all of
Israel. That flat out never happened.

So Israel got started on a myth that Jews were forced to leave and had
wandered the earth without a home. Fact, they left voluntarily. And
now the current round of fighting over the mythical temple of the
mythical Solomon.

The issue can not be the second temple as by their own beliefs there
was never anything sacred in it. The Ark, judgment seat and the rest
of sacred paraphernalia had long vanished. And in light of the above,
that Moses is a total myth, so also the Exodus and the idea the sacred
paraphernalia ever existed.


http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/arch6.htm
There is little, if any, evidence of the remains of Solomon's temple
in Jerusalem today. The recent work of Kathleen Kenyon in Jerusalem
has revealed a few structures in the northern part of the city which
may be Solomonic but there is no certainty. If there are any remains
left, they would be under the sacred enclosure of the Muslims known as
the Dome of the Rock. Enclosed within this structure is a very large
rock protruding out of the ground. This sanctuary is forbidden ground
to the archaeologist. This rock may be the foundation upon which the
Holy of Holies was built. This would be a natural foundation upon
which to built. Another problem in the location of any ruins is that
the temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 587 B.C. Then Herod
built an extension to the south onto the foundation which existed. The
existing foundations are those built by Zerubbabel after the return
from the Babylonian exile. There is no way of determining what is
Solomonic, if anything.
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Susan Cohen
2005-03-21 04:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
Post by El Kabong
There are no other records describing
it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the
Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated with
King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to
match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.
Is that right?
Post by El Kabong
There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these
archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed. Some
now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King
Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which
is described in the Bible.
Is that right?

[snip]
Post by El Kabong
And the Wailing Wall that is supposed to be a remaining wall of the
second temple was identified as the wall of a 17th century cemetery
some three seconds before the researcher's archaeological research
permit was pulled. That leads to the rather clear conclusion the
entire confrontation over East Jerusalem and the so called temple
mount by the Jews is no more than a superstition which has ignited the
hostilities in the Mideast.
Is that why the towelheads digging up underneath the Al Aqsa mosque?
To get rid of evidence?
Post by El Kabong
Despite a massive archaeological search of the Sinai Peninsula when
Israel controlled it, not one sign of the millions of people and
animals which supposedly wandered there for forty years was ever
found. Should anyone ever consider the actual distances involved
between Egypt and Jerusalem it is noted it is a leisurely five days
walk away.
Millions of people? Only 5 days walk?

Susan
amigo cabal
2005-03-21 04:18:17 UTC
Permalink
shit yes! and the evidence is all in russian!
amigo cabal
2005-03-22 04:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
AnonMoos
2005-03-22 06:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
What a mindless idiot you are -- you've been repeatedly told about the
Merneptah stele, the Moabite stone, the Hezekiah tunnel inscription, and
so on, yet you prefer to remain an ignorant know-nothing bigot! But you
don't have to take my word about it -- just look in your own Qur'an (if
you aren't tired of trying to look up verse 9:11 and figuring out where
the alleged "eagle" went, that is!):

Verse 7:137

wa'awrathnaa ´l-qawma ´lladhiina kanuu yustaD`afuuna mashaariqa
´l-'arDi wamaghaaribahaa ´llatii baaraknaa fiihaa watammat
kalimatu rabbika ´l-husnaa `alaa banii 'israa'iila

English translation:

And We caused a people who had been considered weak to inherit the
eastern and western parts of the land which We blessed, so that
the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel.
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
amigo cabal
2005-03-22 06:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by AnonMoos
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
What a mindless idiot you are -- you've been repeatedly told about the
Merneptah stele,
You give me the shits! I have seen that stele, and Johanna, of the Egyptian
museum has translated it to me since hierogliphs of that period are unclear,
and it does not mention Israel at all.
AnonMoos
2005-03-22 07:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by amigo cabal
Post by AnonMoos
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere,
on a tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
What a mindless idiot you are -- you've been repeatedly told about
the Merneptah stele, the Moabite stone, the Hezekiah tunnel
inscription, and so on, yet you prefer to remain an ignorant
know-nothing bigot!
You give me the shits!
I think you give them to yourself.
Post by amigo cabal
I have seen that stele,
Have you? You tell so many lies, that it's impossible to place any
trust in your assertions. In any case, if you had it right in front
of you, you still couldn't read a single sign.
Post by amigo cabal
and Johanna, of the Egyptian museum has translated it to me since
hierogliphs of that period are unclear, and it does not mention
Israel at all.
I have no idea who this person is, what Egyptological qualifications
they have, what there reason is for opposing the consensus of
professional Egyptological opinon, or whether you reported their
alleged remarks correctly. You're going to have to do a little better
than that!
Post by amigo cabal
Post by AnonMoos
But you don't have to take my word about it -- just look in your
own Qur'an (if you aren't tired of trying to look up verse 9:11 and
P.S. Have you found the eagle in Qur'an verse 9:11 yet, StriderCabal?
Post by amigo cabal
Post by AnonMoos
Verse 7:137
wa'awrathnaa ´l-qawma ´lladhiina kanuu yustaD`afuuna mashaariqa
´l-'arDi wamaghaaribahaa ´llatii baaraknaa fiihaa watammat
kalimatu rabbika ´l-husnaa `alaa banii 'israa'iila
And We caused a people who had been considered weak to inherit the
eastern and western parts of the land which We blessed, so that
the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel.
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
amigo cabal
2005-03-23 03:11:25 UTC
Permalink
You red Quran selectively and out of context Moose arse. Anybody could
deride any religion in this manner. And yet you do not like it when I quote
Talmud which is abhorrent.

If you base the existence of Israel on the stele of Meneptha, alone you are
on very shaky ground, because the same stele talks of complete destruction
of the people he referred to. So you are shit out of luck!

OK, Moose Arse!
AnonMoos
2005-03-23 04:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by amigo cabal
Post by AnonMoos
Verse 7:137
wa-'awrathnaa ´l-qawma ´lladhiina kanuu yustaD`afuuna
mashaariqa ´l-'arDi wa-maghaaribahaa ´llatii baaraknaa fiihaa
wa-tammat kalimatu rabbika ´l-Husnaa `alaa banii 'israa'iila
And We caused a people who had been considered weak to inherit the
eastern and western parts of the land which We blessed, so that
the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel.
Verses 5:20-5:21
qaala muusaa ... "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa ´l-muqaddasata
´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum"
Moses said, "My people, go into the Holy Land which God has
assigned to you!"
Verse 17:104
wa-qulnaa ... li-banii 'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa"
And we said to the Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!"
You red Quran selectively and out of context
It's out of context, but it still proves what I wanted it to prove: that
you OWN holy book, the Qur'an, supports the existence of a HISTORICAL link
between the Jewish people and the Holy Land of Israel -- or in other words,
exactly what you've been trying to deny the existence of in this thread!

If I were to claim that "the Qur'an supports Zionism", then I might be
dishonest in my use of verse quotations, but I'm NOT claiming that (though
there's at least one Muslim -- Abdul Hadi Palazzi of Italy -- who claims
this in part).
Post by amigo cabal
Anybody could deride any religion in this manner
I'm not "deriding" it -- I'm pointing out several highly-interesting
passages!
Post by amigo cabal
And yet you do not like it when I quote Talmud
The difference is that when I quote the Qur'an, I go back to the ORIGINAL
ARABIC, which I get from Muslim-run websites. When you attempt to quote
from the Talmud, you don't know ANY Hebrew or Aramaic, and you merely
cut-and-paste a bunch of lying propaganda from White-supremacist neo-Nazi
hate sites. There's a slight difference in procedures...
Post by amigo cabal
If you base the existence of Israel on the stele of Meneptha,
StriderCabal, in Egyptian names the vowels basically count for nothing
(often the vowel letters in modern transcriptions are arbitrarily
insterted by Egyptologists to break up a long series of consonants),
but the consonants are extremely significant, so try to get at least
the consonants right!
Post by amigo cabal
you are on very shaky ground, because the same stele talks of
complete destruction of the people he referred to.
StriderCabal, when you say that, you're just displaying your complete
ignorance of the ancient world. On their official public boasting
inscriptions, the ancient monarchs were always trumpeting their
grlorious victories, and never admitted to any defeat (unless as mere
temporary sertback on the way to achieving an even more triumphant
victory). These types of inscriptions often convert mere skirmishes
into supposed smashing victories, and make extravagant claims about
having destroyed peoples who were in fact not destroyed. Think of
Mereptah's inscriptions as war coverage in a state-controlled Soviet
newpaper...
--
Hamas motto: &#1604;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1607; &#1604;&#1607;&#1605;
&#1573;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578;&#1548;
«&#1581;&#1605;&#1575;&#1587;» &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; (The death-worshipping cult)
Murderers are not martyrs! http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Moishe Lipshitz
2005-03-23 22:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by AnonMoos
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
What a mindless idiot you are -- you've been repeatedly told about the
Merneptah stele, the Moabite stone,
Yes, and check the Stone of Scone for some Hebrew inscriptions too lol


the Hezekiah tunnel inscription, and
Post by AnonMoos
so on, yet you prefer to remain an ignorant know-nothing bigot! But you
don't have to take my word about it -- just look in your own Qur'an (if
you aren't tired of trying to look up verse 9:11 and figuring out where
Verse 7:137
wa'awrathnaa Žl-qawma Žlladhiina kanuu yustaD`afuuna mashaariqa
Žl-'arDi wamaghaaribahaa Žllatii baaraknaa fiihaa watammat
kalimatu rabbika Žl-husnaa `alaa banii 'israa'iila
And We caused a people who had been considered weak to inherit the
eastern and western parts of the land which We blessed, so that
the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel.
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi Ždkhuluu Žl-'arDa
Žl-muqaddasata Žllatii kataba Žllaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "Žskunuu Žl-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
AnonMoos
2005-03-24 00:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by AnonMoos
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere,
on a tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
What a mindless idiot you are -- you've been repeatedly told about
the Merneptah stele, the Moabite stone, the Hezekiah tunnel
inscription, and so on, yet you prefer to remain ignorant
Yes, and check the Stone of Scone for some Hebrew inscriptions too
lol
Do you have anything remotely intelligent to say about the ancient
inscriptional references to the early Israelites/Jews, or are you
merely a know-nothing sneerer and jeerer?
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Pat Harrington
2005-03-22 12:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
WRONG!!! Try looking at Pharoah Merenptah's Victory Stele. In the
sixth to last line it mentions Israel. The text and a picture of it
is here:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/merenphatvictorystele.htm
d***@hotmail.com
2005-03-22 23:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.

"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE

"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE

"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE

"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE

"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE

Deborah
Gab
2005-03-23 04:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on a
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.
"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
Deborah
SO THEN WHAT IS THAT WALL?
Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
2005-03-23 07:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!




<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
: >>El Kabong wrote:
: >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
:
: >"Susan Cohen" <***@gmail.com>wrote in message
: >news:***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
: >>Is that right?
:
: No.
:
: amigo cabal wrote:
: >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
:
: >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
:
: Wrong, as usual.
:
: "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
:
: "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
:
: "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
:
: "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
:
: "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
:
: Deborah
:
d***@hotmail.com
2005-03-23 17:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
I'm embarassed at failing to mention the Hezekiah tunnel.

Photos and additional links:
http://www.bibleplaces.com/heztunnel.htm

Deborah
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.
"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
Deborah
Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
2005-03-23 20:48:52 UTC
Permalink
That's ok, I am embarrassed that I ever moved out of the rova [Jewish
Quarter of the Old City].
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
I'm embarassed at failing to mention the Hezekiah tunnel.

Photos and additional links:
http://www.bibleplaces.com/heztunnel.htm

Deborah
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.
"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
2005-03-23 22:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
That's ok, I am embarrassed that I ever moved out of the rova [Jewish
Quarter of the Old City].
At least the pics on the site below are nice.

Deborah
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
Mount,
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
I'm embarassed at failing to mention the Hezekiah tunnel.
http://www.bibleplaces.com/heztunnel.htm
Deborah
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.
"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
Deborah
Moishe Lipshitz
2005-03-23 22:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
That's ok, I am embarrassed that I ever moved out of the rova [Jewish
Quarter of the Old City].
You can always go back lol
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
Mount,
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
I'm embarassed at failing to mention the Hezekiah tunnel.
http://www.bibleplaces.com/heztunnel.htm
Deborah
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
No.
Post by amigo cabal
Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by amigo cabal
tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
Wrong, as usual.
"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
"Peace upon ISRAEL"
- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
Deborah
Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
2005-03-23 23:51:55 UTC
Permalink
You are slow aren't you?

I am moving back to ISRAEL.

Thanks for playing... now fuck off.



"Moishe Lipshitz" <***@shitz.net> wrote in message news:oXl0e.34289$***@trndny09...
:
: "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" <***@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: news:Gvk0e.60303$***@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
: > That's ok, I am embarrassed that I ever moved out of the rova
[Jewish
: > Quarter of the Old City].
:
: You can always go back lol
: >
: >
: >
: > <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: > news:***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: > Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï wrote:
: > >Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
: > Mount,
: > >tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: >
: > I'm embarassed at failing to mention the Hezekiah tunnel.
: >
: > Photos and additional links:
: > http://www.bibleplaces.com/heztunnel.htm
: >
: > Deborah
: >
: > >>>>El Kabong wrote:
: > >>>>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: > >>>>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >
: > >>>"Susan Cohen" <***@gmail.com>wrote in message
: > >>>news:***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
: > >>>>Is that right?
: >
: > >>No.
: >
: > >>amigo cabal wrote:
: > >>>Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere,
on
: >
: > > a
: >
: > >>>tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: >
: > >>Wrong, as usual.
: >
: > >>"ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: > >>- Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: >
: > >>"Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: > >>days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: > >>'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: > >>'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: > >>Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: > >>and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: > >>me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: > >>- Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: >
: > >>"He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: > >>soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: > >>- Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: >
: > >>"As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: > >>I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: > >>countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: > >>...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: > >>prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: > >>- Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: >
: > >>"Peace upon ISRAEL"
: > >>- Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: > >>Deborah
: >
: >
:
:
Moishe Lipshitz
2005-03-23 22:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >>Is that right?
: No.
: >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
: >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: Wrong, as usual.
: "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: Deborah
Susan Cohen
2005-03-24 02:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.

Susan
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >>Is that right?
: No.
: >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
: >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: Wrong, as usual.
: "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: Deborah
Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
2005-03-24 06:40:53 UTC
Permalink
These tunnel were just dug in the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!

They are not old tunnels! They contain BURIED archaeological evidence of
the TEMPLE!!!!

Nothing about Christians or Muslims!!!!!!!!!





"Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Clp0e.12597$***@trnddc03...
:
: "Moishe Lipshitz" <***@shitz.net> wrote in message
: news:PWl0e.19845$***@trndny01...
: >
: > "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" <***@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: > news:TG80e.58639$***@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
: >> Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
Mount,
: >> tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: >
: > Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
:
: If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.
:
: Susan
: >
: >
: >
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: >> news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
: >> : >>El Kabong wrote:
: >> : >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >> : >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >> :
: >> : >"Susan Cohen" <***@gmail.com>wrote in message
: >> : >news:***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
: >> : >>Is that right?
: >> :
: >> : No.
: >> :
: >> : amigo cabal wrote:
: >> : >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel"
anywhere, on
: >> a
: >> :
: >> : >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: >> :
: >> : Wrong, as usual.
: >> :
: >> : "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: >> : - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: >> :
: >> : "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: >> : days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: >> : 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: >> : 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: >> : Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: >> : and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: >> : me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: >> : - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: >> :
: >> : "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: >> : soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: >> : - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: >> :
: >> : "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: >> : I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: >> : countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: >> : ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: >> : prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: >> : - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: >> :
: >> : "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: >> : - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: >> :
: >> : Deborah
: >> :
: >>
: >>
: >
: >
:
:
Susan Cohen
2005-03-24 07:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
These tunnel were just dug in the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!
They are not old tunnels! They contain BURIED archaeological evidence of
the TEMPLE!!!!
Nothing about Christians or Muslims!!!!!!!!!
Pardon me - I got confused.

Susan
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: >
: >> Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
Mount,
: >> tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: >
: > Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
: If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.
: Susan
: >
: >
: >
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> : >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >> : >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >> : >>Is that right?
: >> : No.
: >> : >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel"
anywhere, on
: >> a
: >> : >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: >> : Wrong, as usual.
: >> : "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: >> : - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: >> : "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: >> : days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: >> : 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: >> : 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: >> : Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: >> : and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: >> : me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: >> : - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: >> : "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: >> : soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: >> : - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: >> : "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: >> : I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: >> : countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: >> : ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: >> : prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: >> : - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: >> : "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: >> : - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: >> : Deborah
: >>
: >>
: >
: >
ren##n.org (The +Revd)
2005-03-24 07:38:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:21:24 GMT, "Suzy the convert"
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
These tunnel were just dug in the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!
They are not old tunnels! They contain BURIED archaeological evidence of
the TEMPLE!!!!
Nothing about Christians or Muslims!!!!!!!!!
Pardon me - I got confused.
Suzy
You're *always* confused, you thick Irish cunt.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: >
: >> Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple
Mount,
: >> tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: >
: > Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
: If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.
: Susan
: >
: >
: >
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> : >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >> : >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >> : >>Is that right?
: >> : No.
: >> : >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel"
anywhere, on
: >> a
: >> : >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: >> : Wrong, as usual.
: >> : "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: >> : - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: >> : "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: >> : days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: >> : 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: >> : 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: >> : Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: >> : and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: >> : me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: >> : - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: >> : "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: >> : soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: >> : - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: >> : "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: >> : I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: >> : countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: >> : ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: >> : prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: >> : - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: >> : "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: >> : - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: >> : Deborah
: >>
: >>
: >
: >
Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
2005-03-24 07:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...




"Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:UTt0e.436$***@trnddc05...
:
: "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" <***@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: news:I9t0e.51005$***@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
: > These tunnel were just dug in the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!
: >
: > They are not old tunnels! They contain BURIED archaeological
evidence of
: > the TEMPLE!!!!
: >
: > Nothing about Christians or Muslims!!!!!!!!!
:
: Pardon me - I got confused.
:
: Susan
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > "Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
: > news:Clp0e.12597$***@trnddc03...
: > :
: > : "Moishe Lipshitz" <***@shitz.net> wrote in message
: > : news:PWl0e.19845$***@trndny01...
: > : >
: > : > "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" <***@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: > : > news:TG80e.58639$***@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
: > : >> Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the
Temple
: > Mount,
: > : >> tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: > : >
: > : > Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
: > :
: > : If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.
: > :
: > : Susan
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >> <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: > : >> news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
: > : >> : >>El Kabong wrote:
: > : >> : >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: > : >> : >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: > : >> :
: > : >> : >"Susan Cohen" <***@gmail.com>wrote in message
: > : >> : news:***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
: > : >> : >>Is that right?
: > : >> :
: > : >> : No.
: > : >> :
: > : >> : amigo cabal wrote:
: > : >> : >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel"
: > anywhere, on
: > : >> a
: > : >> :
: > : >> : >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: > : >> :
: > : >> : Wrong, as usual.
: > : >> :
: > : >> : "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: > : >> : - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: > : >> :
: > : >> : "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: > : >> : days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: > : >> : 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: > : >> : 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: > : >> : Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: > : >> : and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: > : >> : me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: > : >> : - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: > : >> :
: > : >> : "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: > : >> : soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: > : >> : - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: > : >> :
: > : >> : "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: > : >> : I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: > : >> : countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: > : >> : ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: > : >> : prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: > : >> : - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: > : >> :
: > : >> : "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: > : >> : - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: > : >> :
: > : >> : Deborah
: > : >> :
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:
Susan Cohen
2005-03-24 15:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.

Susan
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: > These tunnel were just dug in the last 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!
: >
: > They are not old tunnels! They contain BURIED archaeological
evidence of
: > the TEMPLE!!!!
: >
: > Nothing about Christians or Muslims!!!!!!!!!
: Pardon me - I got confused.
: Susan
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : >
: > : >> Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the
Temple
: > Mount,
: > : >> tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
: > : >
: > : > Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
: > : If so, it doens;t disprove what they were before.
: > : Susan
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >> : >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: > : >> : >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: > : >> : >>Is that right?
: > : >> : No.
: > : >> : >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel"
: > anywhere, on
: > : >> a
: > : >> : >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: > : >> : Wrong, as usual.
: > : >> : "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: > : >> : - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: > : >> : "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: > : >> : days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: > : >> : 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: > : >> : 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: > : >> : Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: > : >> : and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: > : >> : me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: > : >> : - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: > : >> : "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: > : >> : soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: > : >> : - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: > : >> : "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: > : >> : I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: > : >> : countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: > : >> : ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: > : >> : prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: > : >> : - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: > : >> : "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: > : >> : - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: > : >> : Deborah
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >
: > : >
: >
: >
Roberta Hatch
2005-03-24 20:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.
Your goddamn brain is garbled, Cohen. Why not explain exactly
why your witty one line follow up, with about 100 lines of quoted text
is on-topic in any of the five newsgroups on the Newsgroups line?

Come on spam-cunt, let's see your excuse.

<Roughly 100 lines of quoted text deleted.>

Bobbi

---
Roberta Hatch '65 Panhead
Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This space for rent)
Susan Cohen
2005-03-25 04:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberta Hatch
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.
Your goddamn brain is garbled, Cohen.
Watch yourself, Blobbi.
Post by Roberta Hatch
Why not explain exactly
why your witty one line follow up, with about 100 lines of quoted text
is on-topic in any of the five newsgroups on the Newsgroups line?
You whine worse than any man. Is it that time of the
month again, Blobbi?
Post by Roberta Hatch
Come on spam-cunt, let's see your excuse.
<Roughly 100 lines of quoted text deleted.>
Someone should delete you, Blobbi.
Post by Roberta Hatch
Blobbi
---
Roberta Hatch '65 Pinhead
Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This space for rent)
Ed
2005-03-27 20:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberta Hatch
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.
Your goddamn brain is garbled, Cohen. Why not explain exactly
why your witty one line follow up, with about 100 lines of quoted text
is on-topic in any of the five newsgroups on the Newsgroups line?
Come on spam-cunt, let's see your excuse.
Spam-cunt? It seems the Newsgroup Nazi can bitch and moan about people
using foul language against her, but she has free license to use precisely
that same kind of language against others.

Well, Nazis of any kind, including those who try to control newsgroups, are
nothing if not hypocritical.
Post by Roberta Hatch
<Roughly 100 lines of quoted text deleted.>
Bobbi
---
Roberta Hatch '65 Panhead
Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This space for rent)
Susan Cohen
2005-03-28 20:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed
Post by Roberta Hatch
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.
Your goddamn brain is garbled, Cohen. Why not explain exactly
why your witty one line follow up, with about 100 lines of quoted text
is on-topic in any of the five newsgroups on the Newsgroups line?
Come on spam-cunt, let's see your excuse.
Spam-cunt?
Hmm, let's see - the thread was about an archaeological site in Israel, it
pertained to both the Jewish religion & middle eastern politics.

It seems the Newsgroup Nazi can bitch and moan about people
Post by Ed
using foul language against her, but she has free license to use precisely
that same kind of language against others.
And to spam just as she keeps pretending I am?
& to rail against me but absolutely NO ONE ELSE in the thread?
Post by Ed
Well, Nazis of any kind, including those who try to control newsgroups, are
nothing if not hypocritical.
Bingo.

Susan
Roberta Hatch
2005-03-30 14:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Ed
Post by Roberta Hatch
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Actually, I was yelling at LipSHITE, not you...
Still, I made a garbled reference myself.
Your goddamn brain is garbled, Cohen. Why not explain exactly
why your witty one line follow up, with about 100 lines of quoted text
is on-topic in any of the five newsgroups on the Newsgroups line?
Come on spam-cunt, let's see your excuse.
Spam-cunt?
Hmm, let's see - the thread was about an archaeological site in Israel, it
pertained to both the Jewish religion & middle eastern politics.
No kidding? Let's see, your reply Cohen was, "Still, I made a
garbled reference myself," and you quoted at a thousand lines of text.
And, crossposted to five newsgroups.

Care to explain how your reply was "on-topic" for any of those
newsgroups. Care to tell the collect readerships why you crosspoted
your reply here to soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel,
soc.culture.pakistan, soc.culture.arabic and soc.culture.jewish without
setting the Followup-To line, little miss spam-cunt?
Post by Susan Cohen
It seems the Newsgroup Nazi can bitch and moan about people
Post by Ed
using foul language against her, but she has free license to use precisely
that same kind of language against others.
And to spam just as she keeps pretending I am?
& to rail against me but absolutely NO ONE ELSE in the thread?
You've been doing this for *years* stupid. You've ignored every
goddamn polite request to stop crossposting your tripe. You did it to
soc.culture.jewish -- and that was the straw that broke the camel's back
and casued the readership there to moderate the newsgroup.

Btw, Ed the stupid, I've never complained about anyone using
foul language "against" me. You can search and search on Goggle, but
you won't find any complaint.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Ed
Well, Nazis of any kind, including those who try to control newsgroups,
are nothing if not hypocritical.
Bingo.
Is Bingo the name of the dog that fucks you up the ass between
each of the dozens of off-topic, crossposted crap articles you post nearly
every day?

Now to everyone else: Any bets that 'Ed the stupid' will reset
the Newsgroups line, come back with one of his 'witty' retorts and
Cohen will respond to him? I'll wager that's exactly what will happen.

Bobbi

---
Roberta Hatch '65 Panhead
Dykes on Bikes, San Francisco, CA (This space for rent)
Gab
2005-03-24 10:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
Not to mention all the proof in the tunnels underneath the Temple Mount,
tunnels that I, myself, have been in and have seen!
Those are Christian catacombs and old wine cellars.
NOT TRUE THERE ARE NO CARACOMBS OR WINE CELLARS IN JERUSALEM BESIDES YOUR
SICK MUSLIM IMAGINATION.
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï
: >>>What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
: >>>The only evidence is the Bible.
: >>Is that right?
: No.
: >Not only is that right, there is no mention of "Israel" anywhere, on
a
: >tablet, urn, papyrus or even on a broken shard!
: Wrong, as usual.
: "ISRAEL is laid waste, his seed is not"
: - Merneptah victory hymn, 13thC BCE
: "Omri was king of ISRAEL, and he oppressed Moab many
: days...The people of Gad had dwelt in the land of
: 'Ataroth from of old, and the king of ISRAEL rebuilt
: 'Ataroth for himself...Kemo' commanded me, "Go, seize
: Nebo from ISRAEL"...the king of ISRAEL fortified Yahatz
: and he remained there while preparing for his battle with
: me. I dug trenches at Qeriho using ISRAELite prisoners"
: - Mesha stele, 10thC BCE
: "He brought along to assist him 2,000 chariots and 10,000
: soldiers of Ahab of ISRAEL."
: - Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, 9thC BCE
: "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke,
: I laid siege to his strong cities, walled forts, and
: countless small villages...I drove out 200,150 people,
: ...and considered them slaves. Hezekiah I made a
: prisoner in JERUSALEM, his royal residence"
: - Sennacherib prism, 7thC BCE
: "Peace upon ISRAEL"
: - Ein Gedi inscription, 5thC BCE
: Deborah
A***@hotmail.com
2005-03-22 20:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There are no other records describing
it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the
Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated
with
Post by El Kabong
King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to
match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these
archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed.
Some
Post by El Kabong
now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King
Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which
is described in the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
[snip]
Post by El Kabong
And the Wailing Wall that is supposed to be a remaining wall of the
second temple was identified as the wall of a 17th century cemetery
some three seconds before the researcher's archaeological research
permit was pulled. That leads to the rather clear conclusion the
entire confrontation over East Jerusalem and the so called temple
mount by the Jews is no more than a superstition which has ignited
the
Post by El Kabong
hostilities in the Mideast.
Is that why the towelheads digging up underneath the Al Aqsa mosque?
To get rid of evidence?
Post by El Kabong
Despite a massive archaeological search of the Sinai Peninsula when
Israel controlled it, not one sign of the millions of people and
animals which supposedly wandered there for forty years was ever
found. Should anyone ever consider the actual distances involved
between Egypt and Jerusalem it is noted it is a leisurely five days
walk away.
Millions of people? Only 5 days walk?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Susan
Moishe Lipshitz
2005-03-23 22:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There are no other records describing
it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the
Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated
with
Post by El Kabong
King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to
match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these
archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed.
Some
Post by El Kabong
now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of
King
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire
which
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
is described in the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
[snip]
Post by El Kabong
And the Wailing Wall that is supposed to be a remaining wall of the
second temple was identified as the wall of a 17th century cemetery
some three seconds before the researcher's archaeological research
permit was pulled. That leads to the rather clear conclusion the
entire confrontation over East Jerusalem and the so called temple
mount by the Jews is no more than a superstition which has ignited
the
Post by El Kabong
hostilities in the Mideast.
Is that why the towelheads digging up underneath the Al Aqsa mosque?
To get rid of evidence?
Post by El Kabong
Despite a massive archaeological search of the Sinai Peninsula when
Israel controlled it, not one sign of the millions of people and
animals which supposedly wandered there for forty years was ever
found. Should anyone ever consider the actual distances involved
between Egypt and Jerusalem it is noted it is a leisurely five days
walk away.
MILLIONS? HAHAHA In all of Egypt at the time of the so called
Exodus there were only 1-2 million people. Most likely less than 1 million.
Susan Cohen
2005-03-24 02:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
I am not so stupid as to have to even ask
YES
& of course this is wrong; no surprise here.

[snip repitition]

Susan
Gab
2005-03-24 10:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moishe Lipshitz
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_qa.shtml
What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
WHAT ABOUT THAT WALL IN THE MIDDLE OF JERUSALEM WHERE THE JEWS ARE PRAYING TO THIS DAY?
The only evidence is the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There are no other records describing
it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the
Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated
with
Post by El Kabong
King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to
match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these
archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed.
Some
Post by El Kabong
now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of
King
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire
which
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by El Kabong
is described in the Bible.
Is that right?
YES
Post by Susan Cohen
[snip]
Post by El Kabong
And the Wailing Wall that is supposed to be a remaining wall of the
second temple was identified as the wall of a 17th century cemetery
some three seconds before the researcher's archaeological research
permit was pulled. That leads to the rather clear conclusion the
entire confrontation over East Jerusalem and the so called temple
mount by the Jews is no more than a superstition which has ignited
the
Post by El Kabong
hostilities in the Mideast.
Is that why the towelheads digging up underneath the Al Aqsa mosque?
To get rid of evidence?
Post by El Kabong
Despite a massive archaeological search of the Sinai Peninsula when
Israel controlled it, not one sign of the millions of people and
animals which supposedly wandered there for forty years was ever
found. Should anyone ever consider the actual distances involved
between Egypt and Jerusalem it is noted it is a leisurely five days
walk away.
MILLIONS? HAHAHA In all of Egypt at the time of the so called
Exodus there were only 1-2 million people. Most likely less than 1 million.
El Kabong
2005-03-26 00:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Army Probe Finds Abuse at Base Near Mosul


By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - An Army investigation found systematic abuse and possible
torture of Iraqi prisoners at a base near Mosul just as top military
officials became aware of abuse allegations at the Abu Ghraib prison
outside Baghdad, documents released Friday showed.

Records previously released by the Army have detailed abuses at Abu
Ghraib and other sites in Iraq as well as at sites in Afghanistan and
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The documents released Friday were the first to
reveal abuses at the jail in Mosul and are among the few to allege
torture directly.

An officer found that detainees "were being systematically and
intentionally mistreated" at the holding facility near Mosul in
December 1993. The 311th Military Intelligence Battalion of the Army's
101st Airborne Division ran the lockup.

"There is evidence that suggests the 311th MI personnel and/or
translators engaged in physical torture of the detainees," a memo from
the investigator said. The January 2004 report said the prisoners'
rights under the Geneva Conventions were violated.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prisoner_abuse_iraq
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
El Kabong
2005-05-11 11:58:27 UTC
Permalink
All UN and other foreign aid workers in the city have been told to
move to safe areas.

The protesters chanted "Death to America" and smashed car windows and
damaged shops.

Protests also spread to the south-eastern city of Khost, where
hundreds of students took to the streets.

In Jalalabad, buildings belonging to the United Nations are reported
to have been attacked and the offices of two international aid groups
are said to have been destroyed.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4535491.stm

Wednesday, 11 May, 2005, 10:52 GMT 11:52 UK

Riots over US Koran 'desecration'

At least four people have been killed and many injured after police
opened fire to break up an anti-US protest in eastern Afghanistan,
officials say.

Hundreds of students rioted in the city of Jalalabad over reports that
the Koran was desecrated at the US prison camp in Guantanamo Bay,
Cuba.

President Hamid Karzai has said the violence showed the inability of
Afghan authorities to handle such protests.

The US authorities have said they are investigating the allegations.



"Obviously the destruction of any kind of holy book... is something
that is reprehensible and not in keeping with US policies and
practices," state department spokesman Tom Casey said.

President Karzai, who is in Brussels, told Nato that his country would
need international assistance "for many, many years to come".

Buildings burned down

Afghan National Army soldiers, supported by US units, are out on the
streets of Jalalabad to try and control the situation.


Protests also spread to the south-eastern city of Khost, where
hundreds of students took to the streets.

In Jalalabad, buildings belonging to the United Nations are reported
to have been attacked and the offices of two international aid groups
are said to have been destroyed.

Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, told the BBC
the Pakistani consul's house had also been burned down and two cars
torched.

One international aid worker in Jalalabad told the BBC that he could
see smoke rising from points across the city.

He said there were groups of people running along the streets,
reportedly looking for foreigners and anyone working for
non-governmental organisations.


The BBC's Andrew North in Kabul says the violence comes after several
months of mounting concern among foreign aid workers in Afghanistan
over their security.

All UN and other foreign aid workers in the city have been told to
move to safe areas.

The protesters chanted "Death to America" and smashed car windows and
damaged shops.

"Police opened fire in the air to control the mob, and some people
were injured," Jalalabad police chief, Abdul Rehman, told Reuters news
agency.

Jalalabad is 130km (80 miles) east of the Afghan capital, Kabul, close
to the Pakistani border.

Reports of abuse

The unrest follows a report in the American magazine, Newsweek, that
interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had placed copies of the Koran on
toilets in order to put pressure on Muslim prisoners.

On Sunday, the Pakistani government said it was "deeply dismayed" over
the reports about the Koran.

Islamist parties there have called for a nationwide strike on Friday.

Both Pakistan and Afghanistan are close allies of the US in its war
against terror.

Insulting the Koran or Islam's Prophet Mohammed is regarded as
blasphemy and punishable by death in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.



+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html





NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
abelandox
2005-05-12 14:13:02 UTC
Permalink
www.abeljc.eqqurebates.com/signup
www.greenzap.com/blandox
Johnny Asia
2005-09-24 02:50:44 UTC
Permalink
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050924/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_rights_dc

U.S. Army soldiers make abuse claims in Iraq, Afghanistan
By Will Dunham



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army captain and two sergeants recounted
in a Human Rights Watch report on Friday how Iraqi inmates near
Falluja were beaten with a baseball bat, stacked clothed in pyramids,
deprived of food and water and put in painful positions until they
fainted.

The abuse often occurred under orders or with the consent of superior
officers, said the captain, who served in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

He also described U.S. forces abusing prisoners in Afghanistan,
including sleep deprivation.

The captain said he sought for 17 months to raise concerns about
detainee abuse through his military chain of command and to receive
clearer guidance on treatment of detainees. He said superiors told him
to look the other way and that his efforts could damage his career.

The three, not identified by name in the report or by the Army, said
soldiers in the 82nd Airborne Division at a forward operating base
near Falluja carried out the prisoner abuse.

U.S. Army spokesman Paul Boyce said Army criminal investigators had
spoken to the captain, whom he described as an unidentified officer,
and opened a probe into the allegations he made "that he may have
witnessed or heard about acts of detainee abuse during his military
service in Iraq and Afghanistan."

This account of incidents that took place at the base from summer 2003
to spring 2004 was similar to abuse occurring at about the same time
at Abu Ghraib jail on the outskirts of Baghdad.

"We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull
them down, kick dirt on them. This happened every day," said one
sergeant in a statement in the report.

"Leadership failed to provide clear guidance so we just developed it.
... We heard rumors of (prisoners) dying so we were careful. We kept
it to broken arms and legs..."

"In retrospect what we did was wrong, but at the time we did what we
had to do. Everything we did was accepted, everyone turned their
heads," the sergeant said.

UNDER ORDERS

"I witnessed violations of the Geneva Conventions that I knew were
violations of the Geneva Conventions when they happened but I was
under the impression that that was U.S. policy at the time," the
captain said in the report.

Human Rights Watch identified the captain as a graduate of the U.S.
Military Academy at West Point, New York, who served in the 82nd
Airborne Division in Afghanistan from August 2002 to February 2003 and
in Iraq from September 2003 to March 2004. He commanded a rifle
company in Falluja and is now at Special Forces school at Fort Bragg,
North Carolina.

"He is the epitome of an honorable officer trying to do the right
thing," said Human Rights Watch's Tom Malinowski.

Asked whether the captain would be punished by the Army for going
public, Boyce said, "Lord, no." But Boyce said he could face potential
punishment "if he were implicated in acts of detainee abuse that he
committed." Boyce said the Army did not know the identities of the
sergeants.

"This is another predictable report by an organization trying to
advance an agenda through the use of distortions and errors in fact.
It's a shame they refuse to convey how seriously the military has
investigated all credible allegations of detainee abuse and how we've
looked at all aspects of detention operations under a microscope,"
said Lt. Col. John Skinner, a Pentagon spokesman on detainee
issues.

The accounts given in the report, Human Rights Watch said,
contradicted claims by the Bush administration that detainee abuse by
U.S. forces was not systemic or a matter of policy.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-09-24 03:23:33 UTC
Permalink
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html


CHRIS HONDROS / GETTYA Marine stands watch during midnight patrol
near Camp Mercury

Friday 23 Sept. 2005
By ADAM ZAGORIN Web Exclusive
Pattern of Abuse
EXCLUSIVE : A decorated Army officer reveals new allegations of
detainee mistreatment in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Did the military ignore his charges ?

The US Army has launched a criminal investigation into new allegations
of serious prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan made by a decorated
former Captain in the Army's 82nd Airborne Division, an Army spokesman
has confirmed to TIME.

The claims of the Captain, who has not been named, are in part
corroborated by statements of two sergeants who served with him in the
82nd Airborne; the allegations form the basis of a report from Human
Rights Watch obtained by TIME and due to be released in the next few
days (Since this story first went online, the organization has decided
to put out its report; it can be found here :
http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905 )

Senate sources tell TIME that the Captain has also reported his
charges to three senior Republican senators: Majority Leader Bill
Frist, Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner and John McCain,
a former torture victim in Vietnam. A Senate Republican staffer
familiar with both the Captain and his allegations told TIME he
appeared "extremely credible."
The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees
by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base
located near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the US
occupation in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the
report and accounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to
Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004,
before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal
investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, but prior to when
the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described
in the Human Rights report occurred at Camp Tiger, near Iraq's border
with Syria, and previously in Afghanistan. In addition, the report
details what the Captain says was his unsuccessful effort over 17
months to get the attention of military superiors. Ultimately he
approached the Republican senators.

The Human Rights Watch report—as well as accounts given to Senate
staff—describe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring
or covering it up, amid chronic confusion over US military detention
policies and whether or not the Geneva Convention applied. The Captain
is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel
at Camp Mercury directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of
prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous
forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them
to extremes of heat and cold—all methods designed to produce greater
cooperation with interrogators. Non-uniformed personnel—apparently
working for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to the
soldiers—also interrogated prisoners. The interrogators were out of
view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they
came to believe was abuse.

Specific instances of abuse described in the Human Rights Watch report
include severe beatings, including one incident when a soldier
allegedly broke a detainee's leg with a metal bat. Others include
prisoners being stacked in human pyramids (unlike the human pyramids
at Abu Ghraib, the prisoners at Camp Mercury were clothed); soldiers
administering blows to the face, chest and extremities of prisoners;
and detainees having their faces and eyes exposed to burning
chemicals, being forced into stress positions for long periods leading
to unconsciousness and having their water and food withheld.

Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced "pucks")—or "persons
under control." A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says,
involved off-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners
were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as
"F____a PUC" (beating the prisoner) and "Smoke a PUC" (forced physical
exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and
similar painful injuries would be treated with analgesics, the
soldiers claim, as medical staff would fill out paperwork stating the
injuries occurred during capture. Support for some of the allegations
of abuse come from a sergeant of the 82nd Airborne who served in both
Iraq and Afghanistan. Human Rights Watch quotes him as saying that,
"To 'F____ a PUC' means to beat him up. We would give them blows to
the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull them down, kick dirt on them.
This happened every day. To 'smoke' someone is to put them in stress
positions until they get muscle fatigue and pass out. That happened
every day. Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone
sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. This was before
Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement.

"On their day off people would show up all the time," the sergeant
continues in the HRW report. "Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to
work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was
sport. The cooks were all US soldiers. One day a sergeant shows up and
tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the
guy's leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. He was
the cook."



+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-09-25 12:54:46 UTC
Permalink
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8044

US army plans to bulk-buy anthrax
10:00 24 September 2005
NewScientist.com news service
The World's No.1 Science & Technology News Service
David Hambling

THE US military wants to buy large quantities of anthrax, in a
controversial move that is likely to raise questions over its
commitment to treaties designed to limit the spread of biological
weapons.

A series of contracts have been uncovered that relate to the US army's
Dugway Proving Ground in Utah. They ask companies to tender for the
production of bulk quantities of a non-virulent strain of anthrax, and
for equipment to produce significant volumes of other biological
agents.

Issued earlier this year, the contracts were discovered by Edward
Hammond, director of the Sunshine Project, a US-German organisation
that campaigns against the use of biological and chemical weapons.

One "biological services" contract specifies: "The company must have
the ability and be willing to grow Bacillus anthracis Sterne strain at
1500-litre quantities." Other contracts are for fermentation equipment
for producing 3000-litre batches of an unspecified biological agent,
and sheep carcasses to test the efficiency of an incinerator for the
disposal of infected livestock.

Major concern
Although the Sterne strain is not thought to be harmful to humans and
is used for vaccination, the contracts have caused major concern.

"It raises a serious question over how the US is going to demonstrate
its compliance with obligations under the Biological Weapons
Convention if it brings these tanks online," says Alan Pearson,
programme director for biological and chemical weapons at the Center
for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington DC. "If one can
grow the Sterne strain in these units, one could also grow the Ames
strain, which is quite lethal."

The US renounced biological weapons in 1969, but small quantities of
lethal anthrax were still being produced at Dugway as recently as
1998.

It is not known what use the biological agents will be put to. They
could be used to test procedures to decontaminate vehicles or
buildings, or to test an "agent defeat" warhead designed to destroy
stores of chemical and biological weapons.

Highly provocative
There are even fears that they could be used to determine how
effectively anthrax is dispersed when released from bombs or
crop-spraying aircraft. "I can definitely see them testing biological
weapons delivery systems for threat assessment," says Hammond.

Whatever use it is put to, however, the move could be seen as highly
provocative by other nations, he says. "What would happen to the
Biological Weapons Convention if other countries followed suit and
built large biological production facilities at secretive military
bases known for weapons testing?"

A spokesperson for Dugway said the anthrax contract is still at the
pre-solicitation stage, and the base has not yet acquired the agent.
They refused to say what it will be used for.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-09-26 12:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Who's Blowing Up Iraq? New evidence that bombs are being planted by
British -

http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=55&p=15926&s2=20

- "The Iraqi security officials on Monday variously accused two
Britons they detained of shooting at Iraqi forces or TRYING TO PLANT
EXPLOSIVES." Washington Post, Ellen Knickmeyer, 9-20-05; "British
Smash into Jail to Free Two Detained Soldiers"
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-09-29 17:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Americans oppose use of force to promote democracy: poll


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Amid the ongoing occupation of Iraq, most
Americans are opposed to using military force to promote democracy,
according to a new survey.

"Only 35 percent favored using military force to overthrow dictators.
Less than one in five favored the US threatening to use military force
if countries do not institute democratic reforms," the poll by the
Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and Chicago Council
on Foreign Relations found.

Fully 74 percent of those surveyed -- including 60 percent of those
identifying themselves as Republicans -- said that the goal of
overthrowing Iraq's authoritarian government and establishing a
democracy was not reason enough to fight a war.

And 72 percent said that the US involvement in Iraq has made them feel
worse about the idea of using military force to foster democracy in
the future.

"More broadly most Americans do not appear to have been persuaded by
President Bush's State of the Union argument that promoting democracy
is a critical means for fighting terrorism and making the world
safer," said Steven Kull, director of PIPA.

"While Americans generally support the goal of promoting democracy,
they take the pragmatic approach of not making it a top priority in
all cases," added Christopher Whitney, Director for Studies of the
Chicago Council on Foreign Relations.

The survey also found 26 percent agreed that when there are more
democracies the world is safer and 45 percent agreed that people in
democracies are less likely to support terrorist groups.

Interestingly though 78 percent said that democracy is the best form
of government only 50 percent said that it is the best for all
countries and 28 percent said they believe that nearly all countries
will become democracies.

Respondents embraced fostering democracy through diplomatic and
cooperative methods. Fully 74 percent favored helping emerging
democracies with aid and technical assistance in conducting elections.
And 66 percent favored sending monitors to certify that elections are
conducted fairly, the poll found.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
lo yeeOn
2005-09-30 09:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Going to war and invading another country in order to bring democracy
from the outside into that country? How could that be? The country
which have been attacked is invariably in shock and convulsion as it
has been torn apart by the war and the reactions to the war.

The propagandists in the government surely have thought about it and
recognized that it is a non-starter for an act and a contradiction for
a rationale.

And that's why the administrations of Bush and Blair brought out the
false WMD allegation, knowing that it would frighten their own people
enough to support the war they wanted. (They knew all too well that
by proof time, the deed has been done and Iraq was in their pocket.)

Promoting democracy is just an euphemism for regime change. Uncle Sam
has never been one to go out of his way to be nice to little people.
But he could count on the Kurds to say thanks, present themselves as
representatives of the Iraqi people, and ``request on their behalf''
that American troops remain to protect their ``budding democracy''.

Alas! The Kurds aren't even Arabs and they have their own agenda for
an independent Kurdistan in control of the oil-rich Kirkuk, as the
Arabs of Iraq see in horror their society got torn apart. We don't
have to look far. Uncle Sam isn't in Iraq to bring freedom or
democracy to the people! The Iraqi women are actually losing their
basic rights when Uncle Sam is doing his robbing Pete (Sunni Arabs)
to pay Paul (Kurds and the Shiite Arab politicians) as he is scheming
to secure his hold of Iraq's strategic value and national assets.

Woe is it for the powerless of the new millennium, people who have no
laser-guided bombs of all intensities and varieties to fight for their
freedom and democracy but must accept the terms of those who do.

lo yeeOn
========
Post by Johnny Asia
Americans oppose use of force to promote democracy: poll
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Amid the ongoing occupation of Iraq, most
Americans are opposed to using military force to promote democracy,
according to a new survey.
"Only 35 percent favored using military force to overthrow dictators.
Less than one in five favored the US threatening to use military force
if countries do not institute democratic reforms," the poll by the
Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and Chicago Council
on Foreign Relations found.
Fully 74 percent of those surveyed -- including 60 percent of those
identifying themselves as Republicans -- said that the goal of
overthrowing Iraq's authoritarian government and establishing a
democracy was not reason enough to fight a war.
And 72 percent said that the US involvement in Iraq has made them feel
worse about the idea of using military force to foster democracy in
the future.
"More broadly most Americans do not appear to have been persuaded by
President Bush's State of the Union argument that promoting democracy
is a critical means for fighting terrorism and making the world
safer," said Steven Kull, director of PIPA.
"While Americans generally support the goal of promoting democracy,
they take the pragmatic approach of not making it a top priority in
all cases," added Christopher Whitney, Director for Studies of the
Chicago Council on Foreign Relations.
The survey also found 26 percent agreed that when there are more
democracies the world is safer and 45 percent agreed that people in
democracies are less likely to support terrorist groups.
Interestingly though 78 percent said that democracy is the best form
of government only 50 percent said that it is the best for all
countries and 28 percent said they believe that nearly all countries
will become democracies.
Respondents embraced fostering democracy through diplomatic and
cooperative methods. Fully 74 percent favored helping emerging
democracies with aid and technical assistance in conducting elections.
And 66 percent favored sending monitors to certify that elections are
conducted fairly, the poll found.
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights,
democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
lo yeeOn
2005-10-01 15:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Going to war and invading another country in order to bring democracy
from the outside into that country?

How could that be? The country which has been attacked would
invariably be in shock. Worse, it would be in some kind of
uncontrollable convulsion as it would have been torn apart by the war
and the reactions to the war.

Iraq did turn out to be in a kind of uncontrollable convulsion now
as it has been torn apart by the war and the reactions to the war.

The propagandists in the government surely have thought about it and
recognized that it is a non-starter for an act and a contradiction for
a rationale, a rationale they must have known not enough people would
be foolish enough to buy.

And that's why the administrations of Bush and Blair brought out the
false WMD allegation, knowing that it would frighten their own people
enough to support the war they wanted. (They knew all too well that
by proof time, the deed would have been done and Iraq the target, in
their pocket.)

Promoting democracy is just an euphemism for regime change. Uncle Sam
has never been one to go out of his way to be nice to little people.
But he could count on the Kurds to say thanks, present themselves as
representatives of the Iraqi people, and ``request on their behalf''
that American troops remain to protect their ``budding democracy''.

Alas! The Kurds aren't even Arabs and they have their own agenda for
an independent Kurdistan in control of the oil-rich Kirkuk, as the
Arabs of Iraq see in horror their society got torn apart. We don't
have to look far. Uncle Sam isn't in Iraq to bring freedom or
democracy to the people! The Iraqi women are actually losing their
basic rights when Uncle Sam is doing his robbing Pete (Sunni Arabs)
to pay Paul (Kurds and the Shiite Arab politicians) as he is scheming
to secure his hold of Iraq's strategic value and national assets.

(And the latest news confirms that the Kurds and the Shiite Arabs each
have their own agenda and care little for each other or the larger
fate of all the Iraqi people. They are reluctant partners brought
together by the forces of the American military in the service of
American interests:

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani has accused Prime Minister Ibrahim
al-Jaafari of violating laws and not implementing articles of a joint
charter signed between the Kurdistan alliance and the Iraqi coalition.

Talabani, a Kurd, on Friday accused al-Jaafari, a Shia, of
unilaterally taking decisions in violation of accords signed by the
two blocs before the setting up of the current government.

Last month a row erupted between Talabani and al-Jaafari over who
should head Iraq's delegation to the annual UN summit in New York.

Officials from both camps said Talabani was irked by al-Jaafari's
insistence that he should lead the country's delegation at the
General Assembly session in New York.

The differences come as both Shia and Kurds are trying to maintain
unity to promote the new constitution in a 15 October referendum.

Aljazeera)

Woe is it for the powerless of the new millennium, people who have no
laser-guided bombs of all intensities and varieties to fight for their
freedom and democracy but must accept the terms of those who do.

lo yeeOn
========

And it always sound so extremely ironic when you hear the squeaky
mouthpieces from the Bush administration trying to rally domestic
support for their war of folly. Their rhetoric is so Orwellian.

Every label of the ``killers'' or ``terrorists'' variety they utter
rings in your ears as if they were talking about themselves:

Rice: Iraq Must Not Be Given Up to Killers

By GEOFF MULVIHILL, Associated Press Writer 43 minutes ago

PRINCETON, N.J. - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday
the United States must not abandon its mission in Iraq and
Americans must realize the consequences of ceding the country
to "merciless killers."

Rice told students at Princeton University that the Bush
administration's focus on the spread of democracy in the Middle East
was both a moral obligation and a tough-minded response to global
terrorism.

"From Cairo and Ramallah to Beirut and Baghdad, they are now finding
new spaces of freedom," Rice said.

The United States must not be afraid to use all its influence in the
world -- political, economic, cultural and military, Rice said.

"In a world where evil is still very real, democratic principles must
be backed with power in all its forms," Rice said. "Any champion of
democracy who promotes principle without power can make no real
difference in the lives of oppressed people."

Rice took the unusual step of noting the number of U.S. troops killed
in Iraq -- nearly 2,000.

"The nation will always honor their names and their sacrifices," she
said.

Although that mounting death toll is helping erode support for the war
in the United States, Rice said the job is worth finishing.

"Let's be clear about who they and we are fighting," Rice said.

Insurgents, including foreigners, kill Iraqi children receiving candy
from American soldiers, and shoot schoolteachers in their classrooms,
Rice said.

"This is not some grass-roots coalition of national resistance," Rice
said. "These are barbaric, merciless killers."

Referring to the political turmoil in Iraq surrounding a constitution
and upcoming elections, Rice said Iraqis will make their own choices
and the world must respect them.

Rice's speech marked the 75th anniversary of the university's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

The school for diplomats-in-training has a liberal tradition.

The dean, Anne-Marie Slaughter, recently criticized the way the Iraq
war is being fought and compared the Abu Ghraib prison scandal to
Hurricane Katrina. "We are as individual Americans ashamed," she said
at a September conference sponsored by the liberal New America
Foundation.

Rice's address comes as President Bush -- down in the polls and
criticized as too slow in his hurricane response -- starts to turn
his focus back to the fight against terrorism and to Iraq, the issues
that helped him win re-election last year.

The administration's attention on Iraq comes amid negative news about
soaring gasoline prices, the war and the federal response to Katrina.

Vice President Dick Cheney plans a speech on Iraq and terrorism on
Monday, followed by a presidential address on Thursday.

The top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey, backed away on
Wednesday from his prediction that a substantial pullout of U.S.
troops could begin by next spring.

Bush has warned of an upsurge in violence before Iraqis vote Oct. 15
on a new constitution. He said that insurgents ultimately will fail.

In an AP-Ipsos poll this month, only 37 percent approved or leaned
toward approval of how Bush has handled the situation in Iraq. The
percentage who disapproved strongly outweighed those who approved
strongly by 46 percent to 22 percent.

Senate Democrats said in a letter Wednesday to Defense Secretary
Donald H. Rumsfeld that he should provide "frank answers" to the
public's questions about Iraq, including the status of the training of
Iraqi security forces and expected U.S. troop levels over the next
year.

In article <***@4ax.com>, Johnny Asia
<poki_pongo at yahoo.com> wrote: > Americans oppose use of force to
promote democracy: poll > > >WASHINGTON (AFP) - Amid the ongoing
occupation of Iraq, most >Americans are opposed to using military
force to promote democracy, >according to a new survey. > >"Only 35
percent favored using military force to overthrow dictators. >Less
than one in five favored the US threatening to use military force >if
countries do not institute democratic reforms," the poll by the
Post by Johnny Asia
Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and Chicago Council
on Foreign Relations found. > >Fully 74 percent of those surveyed --
including 60 percent of those >identifying themselves as Republicans
-- said that the goal of >overthrowing Iraq's authoritarian government
and establishing a >democracy was not reason enough to fight a war. >
Post by Johnny Asia
And 72 percent said that the US involvement in Iraq has made them
feel >worse about the idea of using military force to foster democracy
in >the future. > >"More broadly most Americans do not appear to have
been persuaded by >President Bush's State of the Union argument that
promoting democracy >is a critical means for fighting terrorism and
making the world >safer," said Steven Kull, director of PIPA. >
Post by Johnny Asia
"While Americans generally support the goal of promoting democracy,
they take the pragmatic approach of not making it a top priority in
all cases," added Christopher Whitney, Director for Studies of the
Chicago Council on Foreign Relations. > >The survey also found 26
percent agreed that when there are more >democracies the world is
safer and 45 percent agreed that people in >democracies are less
likely to support terrorist groups. > >Interestingly though 78
percent said that democracy is the best form >of government only 50
percent said that it is the best for all >countries and 28 percent
said they believe that nearly all countries >will become democracies.
Post by Johnny Asia
Post by Johnny Asia
Respondents embraced fostering democracy through diplomatic and
cooperative methods. Fully 74 percent favored helping emerging
democracies with aid and technical assistance in conducting
elections. >And 66 percent favored sending monitors to certify that
elections are >conducted fairly, the poll found. > >+ > >"As
democracy is perfected, the office of president > represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul >of the people. On some great and
glorious day the >plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
Post by Johnny Asia
desire at last and the White House will be adorned >by a downright
moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) > >"Ignorance is an evil weed,
which dictators may cultivate among their >dupes, but which no
democracy can afford among its citizens." >- William H. Beveridge,
1944 > > >"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism >by
those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw > >Want to know what's really
going on in Iraq?
Post by Johnny Asia
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html > >The Rise and
Fall of the Holy Roller Empire >The God-Awful Truth about Christian
Zionism >http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html >
Post by Johnny Asia
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
Post by Johnny Asia
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which
has not >always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making
such material >available to advance understanding of political, human
rights, >democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I >believe
this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
Post by Johnny Asia
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright >Law. In accordance
with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Walter B.
2005-10-01 15:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by lo yeeOn
Going to war and invading another country in order to bring democracy
from the outside into that country?
How could that be? The country which has been attacked would
invariably be in shock.
Your own experience or pseudo intellectual twaddle?

<snip - long rambling rant, quotes, whatever>
Johnny Asia
2005-09-29 19:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
By LARRY NEUMEISTER, Associated Press Writer



NEW YORK - Pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib
prison must be released despite government claims that they could
damage America's image, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein said terrorists in Iraq and
Afghanistan have proven they "do not need pretexts for their
barbarism."

The American Civil Liberties Union sought the release of 87
photographs and four videotapes as part of an October 2003 lawsuit
demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody
and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The
ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

Brutal images of the abuse at the prison have already been widely
distributed, but the lawsuit covers additional photos not yet seen by
the public.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-09-30 16:00:40 UTC
Permalink
September 26, 2005, The Telegraph of Calcutta, India issued an
astounding report that has yet to cause a ripple within America's
mainstream news media. In the fifth paragraph of the article, "Gulf
factor key to PM's Iran vote decision," were the following words:
"Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that THE US HAS PLANS TO INVADE IRAN BEFORE BUSH'S TERM ENDS"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10442.htm



The U.S. Has Plans to Invade Iran Before Bush's Term Ends

But it is America's greater misfortune today to be informed by a
so-called "watch dog" mainstream news media that supinely reports this
war party's will to kill without insisting upon the hard evidence
necessary for justifying war.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10441.htm
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
H. E. Taylor
2005-10-01 04:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
September 26, 2005, The Telegraph of Calcutta, India issued an
astounding report that has yet to cause a ripple within America's
mainstream news media. In the fifth paragraph of the article, "Gulf
"Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that THE US HAS PLANS TO INVADE IRAN BEFORE BUSH'S TERM ENDS"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10442.htm
The U.S. Has Plans to Invade Iran Before Bush's Term Ends
But it is America's greater misfortune today to be informed by a
so-called "watch dog" mainstream news media that supinely reports this
war party's will to kill without insisting upon the hard evidence
necessary for justifying war.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10441.htm
See also:
2005/09/30: CPunch: Bush is Cooking Up Two New Wars

Mired in interminable conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Bush
administration is moving toward initiating two more wars, one with
Iran and one with North Korea. With no US troops available, the Bush
administration is revamping US war doctrine to allow for 'preventative
nuclear attack.' In short, the Bush administration is planning to
make the US the first country in history to initiate war with nuclear
weapons. The Pentagon document, 'Doctrine for Joint Nuclear Operations,'
calls for the use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear adversaries
in order 'to ensure success of US and multinational operations.'

In the case of Iran and North Korea, the Bush administration is using
diplomacy not for diplomatic purposes of reaching agreements, but in
order to set the two countries up for nuclear attack. In the case of Iran,
the Bush administration's plan is now obvious. The Bush administration
is leveling false charges against Iran, just as it did against Iraq,
of conspiring to make nuclear weapons. These charges are known to be
false by the Bush administration and by the entire world.
[...]
<http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts09302005.html>

<sleep tight>
-het
--
"War is good for business. Invest your son." -bumper sticker

Iraq War News: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/terror_war/iraqw.html
Terror War News: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/terror_war/twartn.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
Johnny Asia
2005-09-30 22:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Boeing, Bell apologize for mosque attack ad
By Bill Rigby

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boeing Co. apologized on Friday for a mistakenly
published advertisement for its V-22 Osprey aircraft showing troops
dropping onto the roof of a mosque in what appears to be a simulated
battle scene.

The ad, coming amid rising concern among Muslims over U.S. military
action in Iraq and Afghanistan, prompted immediate complaints
from the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), which demanded
the withdrawal of the campaign.

But Boeing, which created the ad with partner Bell Helicopter, said
publication was a "clerical error" by the National Journal, which ran
the ad on September 24.

The ad shows troops rappelling down from an Osprey craft to the domed
roof of a building labeled "Muhammad Mosque" in Arabic as smoke
billows from a burned-out car nearby.

"It descends from the heavens. Ironically it unleashes hell," says the
ad, published by Boeing and Bell Helicopter, a unit of Textron Inc.,
which jointly developed the Osprey.

The aircraft "delivers Special Forces to insertion points never
thought possible," says the text of the ad.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050930/ts_nm/transport_boeing_dc
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-01 00:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that the US has plans to invade Iran before Bush’s term ends. In
2002, a year before the US invaded Iraq, high-ranking Americans had
similarly shared their definitive vision of a post-Saddam Iraq, making
it clear that they would change the regime in Baghdad.

On the last day of his stay in New York this month, Singh made public
his fears for the safety of nearly four million Indians in the Gulf in
the event of diplomacy failing to persuade Iran away from a
confrontation with the US and others on the nuclear issue.




The Telegraph of Calcutta

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050926/asp/nation/story_5284580.asp

Monday 26 September 2005 By K.P. NAYAR

Gulf factor key to PM’s Iran vote decision

Washington, Sept. 25 : New Delhi acquitted itself reasonably well in
the first significant challenge to its global standing and diplomacy
since the world acknowledged India as an emerging global power worthy
of being in the big league in the 21st century.

The handling of the challenge — its vote on whether Iran’s nuclear
programme should be referred to the UN Security Council — was all the
more commendable because its outcome defied domestic political
expediency.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh personally cleared the decision to vote
with the US and the so-called EU-3, namely Germany, France and the UK,
in favour of referring Iran at an unspecified date to the Security
Council on suspicions of pursuing a programme to acquire nuclear
weapons in the full knowledge that the vote would spark a furore among
Left parties and to a lesser extent in the BJP.

In deciding to vote with the West and not abstaining along with
Russia, China, Brazil and South Africa, what weighed with the Prime
Minister was the absolute imperative for India to secure its interests
in the Gulf and not the desire to protect the 18 July 2005, Indo-US
nuclear agreement, according to diplomats engaged in the negotiations
that led to the IAEA resolution yesterday.

Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that the US has plans to invade Iran before Bush’s term ends. In
2002, a year before the US invaded Iraq, high-ranking Americans had
similarly shared their definitive vision of a post-Saddam Iraq, making
it clear that they would change the regime in Baghdad.

On the last day of his stay in New York this month, Singh made public
his fears for the safety of nearly four million Indians in the Gulf in
the event of diplomacy failing to persuade Iran away from a
confrontation with the US and others on the nuclear issue.

Singh knows that whatever he has done on the economic front in the
last year and a half as Prime Minister and much of what he did as
finance minister in the 1990s will be under threat if the Gulf was
plunged into another war.

In talks with leaders in the US, Russia and Europe, Singh has linked
India’s energy security and its comfortable balance of payments to
stability in the Gulf. That squarely put India against Iran acquiring
nuclear weapons in violation of its own international commitment under
the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT).

In his conversation with Singh on Friday, Iran’s President, Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad, made it clear that Iran would no longer be bound by the
IAEA’s “additional protocol” allowing its inspectors into the country
if it was referred to the Security Council.

Such an action would have been only a few steps away from an Iranian
withdrawal from the NPT itself, which would have created a grave
international crisis. Through other channels, the Iranians also told
India that they would start uranium enrichment from a second nuclear
facility if the Security Council was brought into the issue.

In the light of these developments, foreign secretary Shyam Saran in
New York and India’s permanent representative to the UN in Vienna,
Sheel Kant Sharma, engaged in marathon talks with the Americans and
Europeans right upto the actual vote last night to ensure that Iran
was dealt with in the IAEA and not hauled before the Security Council
immediately.

South Block’s recommendation that India should vote for the resolution
was put before the Prime Minister after the EU-3 approached India in
New York on Friday night.

French, German and British officials assured Saran then that India’s
insistence on dealing with Iran in the IAEA — at least till the next
meeting of the IAEA Board of Governors in November — had been
accommodated. The EU-3 also assured India that IAEA director-general
Mohamed El Baradei would continue to have the whiphand on the issue.

Iran is understood to have assured India privately after last night’s
vote that it would resume negotiations with the IAEA. But in Tehran’s
world of doublespeak, it is also expected to whip up popular sentiment
by publicly railing against the IAEA resolution.



http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050926/asp/nation/story_5284580.asp
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Radaz
2005-10-01 01:50:47 UTC
Permalink
lol. them and what army?
Post by Johnny Asia
Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that the US has plans to invade Iran before Bush's term ends. In
2002, a year before the US invaded Iraq, high-ranking Americans had
similarly shared their definitive vision of a post-Saddam Iraq, making
it clear that they would change the regime in Baghdad.
On the last day of his stay in New York this month, Singh made public
his fears for the safety of nearly four million Indians in the Gulf in
the event of diplomacy failing to persuade Iran away from a
confrontation with the US and others on the nuclear issue.
The Telegraph of Calcutta
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050926/asp/nation/story_5284580.asp
Monday 26 September 2005 By K.P. NAYAR
Gulf factor key to PM's Iran vote decision
Washington, Sept. 25 : New Delhi acquitted itself reasonably well in
the first significant challenge to its global standing and diplomacy
since the world acknowledged India as an emerging global power worthy
of being in the big league in the 21st century.
The handling of the challenge - its vote on whether Iran's nuclear
programme should be referred to the UN Security Council - was all the
more commendable because its outcome defied domestic political
expediency.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh personally cleared the decision to vote
with the US and the so-called EU-3, namely Germany, France and the UK,
in favour of referring Iran at an unspecified date to the Security
Council on suspicions of pursuing a programme to acquire nuclear
weapons in the full knowledge that the vote would spark a furore among
Left parties and to a lesser extent in the BJP.
In deciding to vote with the West and not abstaining along with
Russia, China, Brazil and South Africa, what weighed with the Prime
Minister was the absolute imperative for India to secure its interests
in the Gulf and not the desire to protect the 18 July 2005, Indo-US
nuclear agreement, according to diplomats engaged in the negotiations
that led to the IAEA resolution yesterday.
Top-ranking Americans have told equally top-ranking Indians in recent
weeks that the US has plans to invade Iran before Bush's term ends. In
2002, a year before the US invaded Iraq, high-ranking Americans had
similarly shared their definitive vision of a post-Saddam Iraq, making
it clear that they would change the regime in Baghdad.
On the last day of his stay in New York this month, Singh made public
his fears for the safety of nearly four million Indians in the Gulf in
the event of diplomacy failing to persuade Iran away from a
confrontation with the US and others on the nuclear issue.
Singh knows that whatever he has done on the economic front in the
last year and a half as Prime Minister and much of what he did as
finance minister in the 1990s will be under threat if the Gulf was
plunged into another war.
In talks with leaders in the US, Russia and Europe, Singh has linked
India's energy security and its comfortable balance of payments to
stability in the Gulf. That squarely put India against Iran acquiring
nuclear weapons in violation of its own international commitment under
the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT).
In his conversation with Singh on Friday, Iran's President, Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad, made it clear that Iran would no longer be bound by the
IAEA's "additional protocol" allowing its inspectors into the country
if it was referred to the Security Council.
Such an action would have been only a few steps away from an Iranian
withdrawal from the NPT itself, which would have created a grave
international crisis. Through other channels, the Iranians also told
India that they would start uranium enrichment from a second nuclear
facility if the Security Council was brought into the issue.
In the light of these developments, foreign secretary Shyam Saran in
New York and India's permanent representative to the UN in Vienna,
Sheel Kant Sharma, engaged in marathon talks with the Americans and
Europeans right upto the actual vote last night to ensure that Iran
was dealt with in the IAEA and not hauled before the Security Council
immediately.
South Block's recommendation that India should vote for the resolution
was put before the Prime Minister after the EU-3 approached India in
New York on Friday night.
French, German and British officials assured Saran then that India's
insistence on dealing with Iran in the IAEA - at least till the next
meeting of the IAEA Board of Governors in November - had been
accommodated. The EU-3 also assured India that IAEA director-general
Mohamed El Baradei would continue to have the whiphand on the issue.
Iran is understood to have assured India privately after last night's
vote that it would resume negotiations with the IAEA. But in Tehran's
world of doublespeak, it is also expected to whip up popular sentiment
by publicly railing against the IAEA resolution.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050926/asp/nation/story_5284580.asp
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy,
scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-04 01:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Oct. 3, 2005
Cheney warns against early pullout from Iraq

Cheney was a leading architect of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003,
predicting U.S. forces would be "greeted as liberators" and saying it
would help defeat terrorism by depriving al Qaeda of an ally. He has
also regularly given upbeat defenses of U.S. Iraq policy, saying in
May the insurgency was in its "last throes."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051003/pl_nm/iraq_cheney_dc

--------------------------------
Dick Cheney on invading Iraq in 1991: "would have been a mistake"


Dick Cheney in a post-mortem on the first Gulf War at the Soref
Symposium, 4/29/1991:
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubs/soref/cheney.htm


I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I
think if we were going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to
go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force
because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for
us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd
done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government,
then we'd have had to put another government in its place.

What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i
government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we
want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would
we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What
would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many
casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to
create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently
unstable?

I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use
military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when
not to commit U.S. military force. And it's my view that the President
got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to
get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq.
-----------------------------------------------------------


The Vice President seems to be forgetting things -- must be the onset
of Alzheimers.
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-05 19:35:35 UTC
Permalink
The inquiry began after coalition troops raided a Falluja bomb factory
last November and found a Texas-registered four-wheel-drive being
prepared for a bombing mission.



http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/cars-stolen-in-us-used-in-suicide-attacks/2005/10/03/1128191658703.html


Cars stolen in US used in suicide attacks


Bryan Bender

Washington, October 4, 2005

The FBI's counterterrorism unit has launched a broad investigation of
US-based theft rings after discovering some vehicles used in deadly
car bombings in Iraq, including attacks that killed US troops and
Iraqi civilians, were probably stolen in the United States, according
to senior US Government officials.

The FBI's deputy assistant director for counterterrorism, Inspector
John Lewis, said the investigation did not prove the vehicles were
stolen specifically for car bombings in the Middle East, but there was
evidence they were smuggled out of the US by organised criminal
networks that included terrorists and insurgents.

Cracking the car-theft rings and tracing the cars could help identify
insurgent leaders and shut down one of the means used to attack the
US-led coalition and the Iraqi Government, the officials said.

The inquiry began after coalition troops raided a Falluja bomb factory
last November and found a Texas-registered four-wheel-drive being
prepared for a bombing mission. Investigators said there were several
other cases where vehicles evidently stolen in the US wound up in
Syria or other Middle Eastern countries and ultimately in the hands of
Iraqi insurgent groups, including al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Investigators believed the cars were stolen by local car thieves in US
cities, then smuggled to waiting ships at ports in Los Angeles,
Seattle, and Houston, among other cities. Terrorism specialists said
they believed Iraqi insurgents preferred American stolen cars because
they tended to be larger, blended in more easily with US convoys, and
were harder to identify as stolen.

The Boston Globe


+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-05 21:23:44 UTC
Permalink
I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence
Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war,
and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was
privy to much of the classified material that flowed through
Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a
1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against
the United States; the classified version of the report went into
great detail on the Halabja affair.

http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=32746&lang=en

A Glimpse of The Past: A War Crime or an Act of War?
Stephen C. Pelletiere - NYTimes



MECHANICSBURG, Pa. - It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking
smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the
Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The
dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has
already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own
citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its
citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence
most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the
town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year
Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its
own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam
Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded
with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty
that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only
distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence
Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war,
and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was
privy to much of the classified material that flowed through
Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a
1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against
the United States; the classified version of the report went into
great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came
about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used
chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town,
which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish
civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that
exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United
States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a
classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence
community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was
Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the
battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies,
however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is,
a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are
thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have
possessed blood agents at the time.

These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily,
as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A
much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make
reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that
Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the
report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof,
that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in
its war against Iran.
I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He
has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But
accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of
genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have
goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were
tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but
Halabja is not one of them.

In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has
bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was
Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on
America's impetus to invade Iraq.

We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest
reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical
sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river
system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates,
there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the
country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century
A.D., and was a granary for the region.

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of
dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan
dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming
to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was
much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline
that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the
parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been
made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in
American hands, of course, all that could change.

Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that
probably could not be challenged for decades - not solely by
controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America
didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven
from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American
companies.

All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting,
one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis
directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that
Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve;
in its present debilitated condition - thanks to United Nations
sanctions - Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.

Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is
that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his
people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.

Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American
people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein
gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish
guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards.
Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed
atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds,
particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes
Washington supports?

Stephen C. Pelletiere is author of "Iraq and the International Oil
System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf."

Published on Friday, January 31, 2003 by the New York Times

http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=32746&lang=en


+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-06 12:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Whenever Bush needs help, like before the election, bin Ladan pops up.
This story comes out on the day Bush will attempt to scare the silly
"security moms" with a "major speech" about terrorism.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051006/wl_afp/usattacksbinladenqaeda_051006054921

Bin Laden to surface after new attack on US soil: ex-CIA expert
Thu Oct 6, 1:49 AM ET


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Osama bin laden is expected to remain in hiding
until he stages another attack on the United States, an ex- CIA
expert who had tracked the terror mastermind for two decades warned in
an interview.

"As soon as he hits us in the United States again we'll see how
important he is in the Islamic world," Michael Scheuer, the former
head of the "bin Laden unit" at the CIA, told AFP in an interview.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Grantland
2005-10-06 14:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
Whenever Bush needs help, like before the election, bin Ladan pops up.
This story comes out on the day Bush will attempt to scare the silly
"security moms" with a "major speech" about terrorism.
Now he's got the non-existent "Zarqawi" making all kinds of blood-curdling
threats. He's a brazen liar and a mental. I *hate* Bush. He's the greatest
threat to the world.
Post by Johnny Asia
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051006/wl_afp/usattacksbinladenqaeda_051006054921
Bin Laden to surface after new attack on US soil: ex-CIA expert
Thu Oct 6, 1:49 AM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Osama bin laden is expected to remain in hiding
until he stages another attack on the United States, an ex- CIA
expert who had tracked the terror mastermind for two decades warned in
an interview.
"As soon as he hits us in the United States again we'll see how
important he is in the Islamic world," Michael Scheuer, the former
head of the "bin Laden unit" at the CIA, told AFP in an interview.
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-08 02:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Thursday Oct. 6 2005: An Iraqi man picks through piles of copies of
the new constitution left rotting in the Baghdad garbage dump.
Loading Image...



First the good news
For your (and your grandchildren's future) hard-earned cash, the US is
now the proud owner of 14 semi-permanent army bases
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm
(named, appropriately, after oil companies)
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6128



http://aliberaldose.blogspot.com/2005/10/what-200-billion-dollars-4-billion.html
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Robin Hood Zoro
2005-10-08 07:19:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:20:10 -0400, Johnny Asia <poki_pongo at
Post by Johnny Asia
Thursday Oct. 6 2005: An Iraqi man picks through piles of copies of
the new constitution left rotting in the Baghdad garbage dump.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1450/499/400/dump2.jpg
First the good news
For your (and your grandchildren's future) hard-earned cash, the US is
now the proud owner of 14 semi-permanent army bases
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm
(named, appropriately, after oil companies)
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6128
http://aliberaldose.blogspot.com/2005/10/what-200-billion-dollars-4-billion.html
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-11 02:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Subject of Taped Beating Says He Was Sober
By RACHEL LA CORTE, Associated Press Writer



NEW ORLEANS - A retired elementary teacher who was repeatedly punched
in the head by police in an incident caught on videotape said Monday
he was not drunk, put up no resistance and was baffled by what
happened.

Robert Davis said he had returned to New Orleans to check on property
his family owns in the storm-ravaged city, and was out looking to buy
cigarettes when he was beaten and arrested Saturday night in the
French Quarter.

Police have alleged that the 64-year-old Davis was publicly
intoxicated, a charge he strongly denied as he stood on the street
corner where the incident played out Saturday.

"I haven't had a drink in 25 years," Davis said. He had stitches
beneath his left eye, a bandage on his left hand and complained of
soreness in his back and aches in his left shoulder.

A federal civil rights investigation was begin in the case. Davis is
black. The three city police officers seen on the tape are white.
Police spokesman Marlon Defillo said race was not an issue.

Two city officers accused in the beating, and a third officer accused
of grabbing and shoving an Associated Press Television News producer
who helped document the confrontation, pleaded not guilty Monday to
battery charges.

Trial was set at a hearing Monday for Jan. 11. Afterward, officers
Lance Schilling, Robert Evangelist and S.M. Smith were released on
bond. They left without commenting.

Police Superintendent Warren Riley said any misconduct would be dealt
with swiftly. He noted the video showed "a portion of that incident."

"The actions that were observed on this video are certainly
unacceptable by this department," Riley said.

Two other officials in the video appeared to be federal officers,
according to police. Numerous agencies have sent officers to help with
patrols in the aftermath of Katrina.

Stephen Kodak, an FBI spokesman in Washington, said none of its
agents had been disciplined. He said the FBI was taking part in the
Justice Department's civil rights probe.

Davis said he had been walking in the French Quarter and approached a
mounted police officer to ask about the curfew in the city when
another officer interrupted.

"This other guy interfered and I said he shouldn't," Davis said. "I
started to cross the street and — bam — I got it. ... All I know is
this guy attacked me and said, `I will kick your ass,' and they
proceeded to do it."

He said he did not know why the punches were thrown.

The confrontation came as the New Orleans Police Department — long
plagued by allegations of brutality and corruption — struggles with
the aftermath of Katrina.

The APTN tape shows an officer hitting Davis at least four times in
the head outside a bar. Davis twisted and flailed as he was dragged to
the ground by several officers. Davis's lawyer said his client did not
resist.

"I don't think that when a person is getting beat up there's a whole
lot of thought. It's survival. You don't have a whole lot of time to
think when you're being pummeled," lawyer Joseph Bruno said.

Davis was kneed and pushed to the sidewalk with blood streaming down
his arm and into the gutter. The officers accused of striking Davis
were identified as Schilling and Evangelist.

Mayor Ray Nagin said, "I don't know what the gentleman did, but
whatever he did, he didn't deserve what I saw on tape."

During the arrest, another officer, identified as Smith, ordered APTN
producer Rich Matthews and a cameraman to stop recording. When
Matthews held up his credentials, the officer grabbed the producer,
leaned him backward over a car, jabbed him in the stomach and
unleashed a profanity-laced tirade.

Police said Davis was booked on public intoxication, resisting arrest,
battery on a police officer and public intimidation.

The head of the New Orleans police union said the officers told him
they had acted appropriately.

"They feel they were justified in their actions and they were using
the amount of force necessary to overcome the situation," Lt. David
Benelli told WDSU in New Orleans.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_re_us/new_orleans_taped_beating
+

Johnny Asia, Hippie Guitarist
http://johnnyasia.info

Listen to Spanish Dervish:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Johnny Asia
2005-10-11 16:56:06 UTC
Permalink
U.S. Apologizes in WWII 'Gold Train' Case
By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer



MIAMI - The U.S. government issued a statement of regret Tuesday for
the actions of soldiers who took valuables belonging to Hungarian Jews
that had been seized on a Nazi "Gold Train" during the chaotic end of
World War II.

The statement issued by the U.S. Justice Department said that the
government "regrets the improper conduct of certain of its military
personnel" who took items that had been on the train, which was
carrying jewelry, gold, artwork, Oriental rugs, china, cutlery, linens
and other items.

"The United States has concluded that, although the conduct of its
personnel was appropriate in most respects, it was contrary to U.S.
policy and the standards expected of its soldiers" in some actions,
the Justice Department statement said.

The apology was required as part of a settlement approved Sept. 26 by
a federal judge in Miami between the U.S. government and about 62,000
Hungarian survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. The settlement calls for
$25.5 million to be distributed to needy Jews through social service
agencies around the world, with the bulk going to those in Israel,
Hungary, the United States and Canada.

The "Gold Train" was captured by U.S. soldiers from pro-Nazi Hungarian
forces in May 1945. A U.S. investigation found in 1999 that some Army
soldiers failed to return items initially "requisitioned" from the
train and used in postwar offices, such as rugs, cutlery and even
typewriters.

The investigation also concluded that some property was stolen from a
warehouse by soldiers. Although some personnel were caught and
prosecuted, little of the property was recovered.

The government did hold an auction of remaining items in 1948 to
benefit Jewish relief victims after determining that it would be
impossible to identify the owners of the Gold Train property and that
Hungary's then-communist government would be unlikely to cooperate.

"The United States expresses its sympathy and solidarity with these
victims and hopes that the settlement approved by the district court
will provide meaningful assistance to those survivors," the Justice
Department statement said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/gold_train
+

Johnny Asia, Hippie Guitarist
http://johnnyasia.info

Listen to Spanish Dervish:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Grantland
2005-10-11 17:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
U.S. Apologizes in WWII 'Gold Train' Case
By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer
MIAMI - The U.S. government issued a statement of regret Tuesday for
the actions of soldiers who took valuables belonging to Hungarian Jews
that had been seized on a Nazi "Gold Train" during the chaotic end of
World War II.
The statement issued by the U.S. Justice Department said that the
government "regrets the improper conduct of certain of its military
personnel" who took items that had been on the train, which was
carrying jewelry, gold, artwork, Oriental rugs, china, cutlery, linens
and other items.
"The United States has concluded that, although the conduct of its
personnel was appropriate in most respects, it was contrary to U.S.
policy and the standards expected of its soldiers" in some actions,
the Justice Department statement said.
The apology was required as part of a settlement approved Sept. 26 by
a federal judge in Miami between the U.S. government and about 62,000
Hungarian survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. The settlement calls for
$25.5 million to be distributed to needy Jews through social service
agencies around the world, with the bulk going to those in Israel,
Hungary, the United States and Canada.
The "Gold Train" was captured by U.S. soldiers from pro-Nazi Hungarian
forces in May 1945. A U.S. investigation found in 1999 that some Army
soldiers failed to return items initially "requisitioned" from the
train and used in postwar offices, such as rugs, cutlery and even
typewriters.
The investigation also concluded that some property was stolen from a
warehouse by soldiers. Although some personnel were caught and
prosecuted, little of the property was recovered.
The government did hold an auction of remaining items in 1948 to
benefit Jewish relief victims after determining that it would be
impossible to identify the owners of the Gold Train property and that
Hungary's then-communist government would be unlikely to cooperate.
"The United States expresses its sympathy and solidarity with these
victims and hopes that the settlement approved by the district court
will provide meaningful assistance to those survivors," the Justice
Department statement said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/gold_train
pathetic
Johnny Asia
2005-10-16 10:22:23 UTC
Permalink
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4345220.stm


Saturday, 15 October 2005

'Arms smugglers' seized in Kabul
By Bilal Sarwary
BBC News, Kabul


British and US citizens are among eight people arrested on suspicion
of arms smuggling in the Afghan capital, Kabul, Afghan police have
said.

Two senior police sources told the BBC they were detained in a raid on
a guest house earlier this week.

Those arrested had forged documents saying they were personnel of the
International Security Assistance Force of peacekeepers, the sources
said.

They said Isaf had confirmed those arrested were not part of the
force.

A spokesman for the British embassy in Kabul, Keith Scott, said it was
aware two British nationals had been arrested and that it was
providing consular assistance.

Security forces found five AK47 rifles and two pistols during the
raid.

The police sources would not give a full breakdown of those arrested
but said they included one Indian national and British, US and Afghan
citizens.

Police are searching for another Indian national they believe is in
possession of about 100 pistols.

Those arrested are being interrogated to determine who they had links
with.

The police sources would not say what kind of arms were allegedly
being smuggled or who they were destined for.

The US and British embassies have so far made no comment on the
arrests.

It is believed the first time Westerners have been held for alleged
arms smuggling in Afghanistan


+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-18 21:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Are British Troops at Breaking Point in Iraq?
By Ian Herbert
The Independent UK

Tuesday 18 October 2005

Fears that British forces in Iraq are reaching "breaking point" grew
last night as the first hard evidence of a crisis in morale began to
emerge.

Army sources are warning that the mood among soldiers of all ranks
is at its gloomiest since the invasion in March 2003. The outlook has
become darker as the war proves increasingly intractable and much more
dangerous than troops had expected.

A string of incidents in the past week has contributed to the
sense of crisis:

* The Ministry of Defence has launched an inquiry into the
apparent suicide of Captain Ken Masters, a military police
investigator who was found hanged at his barracks in Basra.

* A decision by Private Troy Samuels, who was awarded a Military
Cross seven months ago for his bravery under fire in Iraq, to abandon
the military rather than return for another tour of duty.

* Seventy soldiers from Private Samuels' battalion, the Princess
of Wales Regiment (1PWRR), have also decided to leave the Army during
the past year rather than return to Iraq

* An RAF officer, Flt-Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, said he was
prepared to face jail rather than serve in Iraq, in a war he considers
to be illegal. He is to be court-martialled for "refusing to obey a
lawful command" and is the first British officer to face criminal
charges for challenging the legality of the war.

The increasingly desperate position of British troops in southern
Iraq was highlighted last night by the former cabinet minister Clare
Short. "The Government are putting the armed forces into an impossible
position," she said. "It is obviously affecting morale."

Ms Short, who resigned over the war, is introducing a Bill on
Friday to compel the Government to seek parliamentary approval before
going to war again. She added: "An army officer stopped me in the
street in Whitehall and said his job was talking to parents of those
who had been killed in Iraq. He said he supported what I was doing. He
said that his job was unbearable. I think the time has come to get a
negotiated timetable for an end to the occupation."

Such a move seems unlikely, however. Recent comments by the
Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, that British forces might have to stay
in an increasingly volatile conflict for up to 10 more years have
exacerbated fears among British forces that the conflict in which they
are engaged is open-ended and lacking a credible exit strategy. There
are currently 8,500 British troops in Iraq, most serving a six-month
tour of duty. Claims have been made that many of those being sent out
feel they do not have the experience to cope with the pressures.

According to Combat Stress, the military charity dedicated to
helping soldiers suffering psychological problems, the seemingly
indefinite struggle has created the greatest crisis of morale among
British troops for decades.

Commodore Toby Elliott, the chief executive of Combat Stress, told
The Independent that many soldiers were leaving the Army early in the
hope that its psychological effects - flashbacks, nightmares and guilt
that they had survived while colleagues had not - would abate.
Commodore Elliot said: "The effects of the Iraq situation are
comparable to serving in Northern Ireland during the worst of the
Troubles when they were subjected to car-bomb attacks."

The incidents are symptomatic of a general malaise. One corporal
said: " This has been a hard, hard tour. I would be glad not to be
back in Iraq for a while." Another NCO added: "Mr Blair keeps on
saying that everything is getting better here. Perhaps he would care
to come and see for himself. He is pretty good at sending other
peoples' sons to Iraq."

Pte Samuels' decision to leave the Army may be a particularly
significantlandmark. A war hero, he was decorated for saving lives
during the ambush which earned his comrade Pte Johnson Beharry a
Victoria Cross. But he told The Independent yesterday that he decided
to leave the moment he was told his unit would be returning to Iraq.

"I couldn't do that," he said, "Not straight away like that. It
would be different if they were sending me to somewhere like
Afghanistan - but not Iraq, right now. The stress for the guys out
there is immense. They are seeing so much bad stuff. I owed it to my
family to call it a day."

The current intensity of day-to-day combat is evident in the
recent incident logs for Pte Samuel's regiment which show that
soldiers have faced 109 individual attacks in a single day.

Capt Masters, 40, with 24 years' experience, had been involved in
investigations of alleged mistreatment of detainees by British
soldiers. Army sources have reported that the stress of investigating
colleagues may have contributed to his death.

Pte Samuel's decision to leave showed that "psychological
injuries" could affect the bravest of officers, said a spokesman for
Combat Stress, which is helping 57 soldiers from the conflict.

Paul Beaver, a defence analyst with close links to senior staff,
said: " There's obviously a disappointment that things have not gone
better. But the main difference between army morale now and 12 months
ago is that there is a resignation among the soldiers that they are in
it for the long haul. There is also recognition that some of the
elements [the Iraqi police] that they trusted can no longer be trusted
and that they must fall back on their own resources."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article320343.ece

+

Johnny Asia, Hippie Guitarist
http://johnnyasia.info

"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Johnny Asia
2005-10-19 10:47:35 UTC
Permalink
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r
Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot
By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 4/10/2003 7:30 PM


U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi
dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S.
intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him
as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S.
intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S.
diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to
piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on
the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S.
intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq
war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he
was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating
then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one
former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a
horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition
of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic
asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the
mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which
was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain,
Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime
until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act
that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State
Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from
the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry
positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic
instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say
publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI
the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just
as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian
leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a
former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this
claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and
anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam,
while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid
of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an
apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's
office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said
the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's
CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian
intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the
assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the
apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S.
officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely
botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the
22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing
Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm.
Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not
fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the
lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official
said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and
Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin,
escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents,
several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian
intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior
CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's
apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA
officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said
that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug --
a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class
neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the
Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence
operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence
officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often
went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh,
very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was
your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American
Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station
chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S.
intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers
to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian
officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according
to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in
Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris
claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was
sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA
official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what
the hell had happened," this official said.

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party
was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine
gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists
who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down,
according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate
knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said.
Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took
place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were
frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial?
You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious
killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to
power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror,"
quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as
saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a
great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative
and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He
wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for
keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret
intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified
after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the
war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield
intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid
the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA
official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a
document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and
Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it,
I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of
three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military
intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to
Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the
al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at
2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks,
invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its
bitterest enemy.

+

Johnny Asia, Hippie Guitarist
http://johnnyasia.info

"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Johnny Asia
2005-10-19 22:00:52 UTC
Permalink
SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian television broadcast on Wednesday
footage of what it said was U.S. soldiers burning two dead Taliban
fighters as they faced Mecca and using the charred and smoking corpses
in a propaganda campaign in southern Afghanistan.

The television report said a U.S. psychological operations unit
broadcast a propaganda message on loudspeakers to Taliban fighters,
taunting them to retrieve their dead and fight.

In Washington, the U.S. Defense Department expressed concern over the
report and promised that it would be "aggressively investigated."

"These are very serious allegations and, if true, very troublesome,"
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman told Reuters.

"It is the policy of the United States, as well as the Defense
Department, to treat all remains consistent with the Geneva Convention
and with the utmost respect. These allegations will be aggressively
investigated and, if proven to be true, the individuals will be held
appropriately accountable," Whitman said.

The "Dateline" current affairs programme on the ethnic Special
Broadcasting Service said the story was filmed in early October. The
footage of the burning corpses was shot by Australian photojournalist
Stephen DuPont who was embedded with a U.S. unit.

Dateline said the two Taliban fighters burned on hills above the
village of Gondaz north of Kandahar were killed by the U.S. soldiers
the night before.

The footage showed flames licking two charred corpses, their legs and
arms outstretched, and a group of five U.S. soldiers standing watching
from a rocky ledge.

Footage showed two U.S. soldiers reading two messages from a notebook
that they said had earlier been broadcast.

"Attention Taliban you are cowardly dogs," read the first soldier,
identified as psyops specialist Sgt. Jim Baker.

"You allowed your fighters to be laid down facing west and burned. You
are too scared to retrieve their bodies. This just proves you are the
lady boys we always believed you to be."

The other unidentified soldier read a second message, part of which
said: "You attack and run away like women. You call yourself Talibs
but you are a disgrace to the Muslim religion, and you bring shame
upon your family. Come and fight like men instead of the cowardly dogs
you are."

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-20 23:25:31 UTC
Permalink
The plight of the civilians is THE unreported story of the Iraq war.
The refugees of Falluja risked their lives to bring this story to you.




CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE


A FUNDRAISER FOR IRAQI CIVILIANS
Victims of combat operations in Iraq

ConceptionMedia presents:

A Joint Production of Iraqi & American Filmmakers

CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE
THE UNTOLD STORY OF FALLUJA
ON SALE NOW

Proceeds go to ongoing relief efforts in Iraq

See the trailer and purchase the DVD:

Here <http://www.conceptionmedia.net/>


Shot from November 2004 to April 2005 inside the city of Falluja,
'Caught in the Crossfire' details the conditions experienced by
civilians as they endured the violent clashes and consequences of
Operation Phantom Fury and became refugees outside the eyes and
care of the international community. A joint production between
American and Iraqi filmmakers, 'Caught in the Crossfire' was filmed
entirely un-embedded, outside the protection or influence of the
military or corporate media, in order to capture the unique and honest
perspective of the civilians themselves.


ON SALE NOW $24.95


Purchase the DVD:


Here <http://www.conceptionmedia.net/>


Proceeds from the sale of this film go directly to aid the innocent
civilians and refugees caught in the crossfire of combat areas inside
Iraq.


The plight of the civilians is THE unreported story of the Iraq war.
The refugees of Falluja risked their lives to bring this story to you.


Help spread their message around the world.
Please forward this on.


"If you want to know what happened inside Fallujah during the
November, 2004 assault on the city, this film is a must see. I could
not recommend this film more highly." -Dahr Jamail


You may also find a link to view trailer and purchase this film:


Here <http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/multi_media/>


_______________________________________________
(c)2004, 2005 Dahr Jamail.
All images, photos, photography and text are protected by United
States and international copyright law. If you would like to reprint
Dahr's Dispatches on the web, you need to include this copyright
notice and a prominent link to the http://DahrJamailIraq.com website.
Website by photographer Jeff Pflueger's Photography Media
http://jeffpflueger.com . Any other use of images, photography, photos
and text including, but not limited to, reproduction, use on another
website, copying and printing requires the permission of Dahr Jamail.
Of course, feel free to forward Dahr's dispatches via email.


More writing, commentary, photography, pictures and images at
http://dahrjamailiraq.com

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-21 00:47:18 UTC
Permalink
"Abu Ghraib ruined the reputation of the Americans in Iraq and to me
this is even worse," said Faiz Mohammed, a top cleric in northern
Kunduz province. "This is against Islam. Afghans will be shocked by
this news. It is so humiliating. There will be very, very dangerous
consequences from this."

Anger also was evident in the streets.

"If they continue to carry out such actions against us, our people
will change their policy and react with the same policy against them,"
said Mehrajuddin, a resident of Kabul, who like many Afghans uses only
one name.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051020/ap_on_re_as/afghan_bodies_burned

Afghans Outraged Over Alleged Desecration
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer



KABUL, Afghanistan - Islamic clerics expressed outrage Thursday at
television footage that purportedly shows U.S. soldiers burning the
bodies of two dead Taliban fighters to taunt other militants and
warned of a possible violent anti-American backlash.


President Hamid Karzai condemned the alleged desecration and ordered
an inquiry. The operational commander of the U.S. military in
Afghanistan, which launched its own criminal probe, said the alleged
act, if true, was "repugnant."

Worried about the potential for anti-American feelings over the
incident, the State Department said it instructed U.S. embassies
around the globe to tell local governments that the reported abuse did
not reflect American values.

Cremating bodies is banned under Islam, and one Muslim leader in
Afghanistan compared the video to photographs of U.S. troops abusing
prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

"Abu Ghraib ruined the reputation of the Americans in Iraq and to me
this is even worse," said Faiz Mohammed, a top cleric in northern
Kunduz province. "This is against Islam. Afghans will be shocked by
this news. It is so humiliating. There will be very, very dangerous
consequences from this."

Anger also was evident in the streets.

"If they continue to carry out such actions against us, our people
will change their policy and react with the same policy against them,"
said Mehrajuddin, a resident of Kabul, who like many Afghans uses only
one name.

Another man in the capital, Zahidullah, said the reported abuse was
like atrocities committed by Soviet troops, who were driven out of
Afghanistan in 1989 after a decade of occupation. He warned that the
same could happen to American forces.

"Their future will be like the Russians," Zahidullah said.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-21 13:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Karzai Condemns Alleged Body Desecration
By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer


KABUL, Afghanistan - President Hamid Karzai on Friday condemned the
alleged desecration of the bodies of two dead Taliban fighters by U.S.
troops, but he said mistakes happen in war and Afghans shouldn't let
it mar their impression of the United States.


His apparent attempt to reduce Afghans' anger over the incident came
amid warnings by Islamic clerics of a possible violent anti-American
backlash.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-22 20:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Frontline : The Torture Question
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

Struggle to create a legal framework to aggressively interrogate enemy
fighters.

People were picked up by no other reason then living on the wrong area
had their feet smashed and then transported to jail, placed in
freezing water with a thermometer in the rectum to measure the body's
inside temperature. The torture would stop if the body would go into
hypothermia.

No wonder republicans want to decrease the subsidies to PBS
They show ( at 1.00am) what the american people don't want to see.
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-10-26 11:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Israel should be 'wiped off the map': Iran president


TEHRAN (AFP) - Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has
openly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and lashed out
at Muslim nations who recognise the Jewish state.

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world
oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference
in Tehran entitled: 'The World without Zionism' on Wednesday.

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The
outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian
land," he thundered in a fiery speech on what he called an "historic
war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said
Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayatollah
Ruhollah Khomeini.

His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking
Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such
slogans are still regularly used at regime rallies.

Addressing some 4,000 students gathered in an interior ministry
conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity,
resistance and "the annihilation of the Zionist regime".

His mere appearance at the conference drew chants of "Death to
Israel", but Ahmadinejad quickly told students -- all of whom wore
black and were sporting green headbands -- to shout the slogan louder.

"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to
live in its heartland," said the president, an austere veteran of
Iran's hardline Revolutionary Guards who took office in August after
scoring a landslide win in a June presidential election.

"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means
he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad said,
telling Muslim leaders who recognise Israel that they "face the wrath
of their own people."

"We should not settle for a piece of land," he said of Israel's
pullout from the Gaza Strip.

His tone represents a dramatic change from that of former president
Mohammad Khatami, whose favoured topic was "dialogue among
civilisations" and who led an effort to improve Iran's relations with
the West.

Ahmadinejad instead spoke of an "historic war" between Islam and the
West.

"It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced.
Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years,
the world of Islam has been in retreat," he lamented.

"One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the
oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. They are
using it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic
world."

The term "oppressor" is used by the clerical regime to refer to the
United States, and in the plural form generally also includes Britain
and Israel.

The one-day conference, organised by an Islamic students' association,
also included a message from Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the head of the
Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah.

"We should gather all means to annihilate the regime which occupies
Qods (Jerusalem)," Nasrallah said in his message, read out by
Hezbollah's representative in Tehran.

Also featured was a six-man choir dressed in dark grey who gave some
harmonic renditions of Koranic verses. Prizes were also on offer for
the best Zionist caricature and in a letter-writing competition also
themed: "The world without Zionism".

The Tehran representative of the Palestinian militant group Hamas was
also present, while the ambassadors of Syria and the
Palestinian Authority put in a showing.

"We have a multitude of activities," event spokesman Saed Ramazan Ali
told AFP. "We want to acquaint Iranian students with the evil aims of
the Zionist regime."

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
ªkœü€jªkŠn
2005-10-26 12:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
Israel should be 'wiped off the map': Iran president
TEHRAN (AFP) - Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has
openly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and lashed out
at Muslim nations who recognise the Jewish state.
"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world
oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference
in Tehran entitled: 'The World without Zionism' on Wednesday.
"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The
outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian
land," he thundered in a fiery speech on what he called an "historic
war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said
Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayatollah
Ruhollah Khomeini.
His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking
Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such
slogans are still regularly used at regime rallies.
Addressing some 4,000 students gathered in an interior ministry
conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity,
resistance and "the annihilation of the Zionist regime".
His mere appearance at the conference drew chants of "Death to
Israel", but Ahmadinejad quickly told students -- all of whom wore
black and were sporting green headbands -- to shout the slogan louder.
"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to
live in its heartland," said the president, an austere veteran of
Iran's hardline Revolutionary Guards who took office in August after
scoring a landslide win in a June presidential election.
"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means
he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad said,
telling Muslim leaders who recognise Israel that they "face the wrath
of their own people."
"We should not settle for a piece of land," he said of Israel's
pullout from the Gaza Strip.
His tone represents a dramatic change from that of former president
Mohammad Khatami, whose favoured topic was "dialogue among
civilisations" and who led an effort to improve Iran's relations with
the West.
Ahmadinejad instead spoke of an "historic war" between Islam and the
West.
"It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced.
Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years,
the world of Islam has been in retreat," he lamented.
"One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the
oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. They are
using it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic
world."
The term "oppressor" is used by the clerical regime to refer to the
United States, and in the plural form generally also includes Britain
and Israel.
The one-day conference, organised by an Islamic students' association,
also included a message from Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the head of the
Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah.
"We should gather all means to annihilate the regime which occupies
Qods (Jerusalem)," Nasrallah said in his message, read out by
Hezbollah's representative in Tehran.
Also featured was a six-man choir dressed in dark grey who gave some
harmonic renditions of Koranic verses. Prizes were also on offer for
the best Zionist caricature and in a letter-writing competition also
themed: "The world without Zionism".
The Tehran representative of the Palestinian militant group Hamas was
also present, while the ambassadors of Syria and the
Palestinian Authority put in a showing.
"We have a multitude of activities," event spokesman Saed Ramazan Ali
told AFP. "We want to acquaint Iranian students with the evil aims of
the Zionist regime."
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
If this doesn't say it all..nothing does
Post by Johnny Asia
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy,
scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Butros Kondara
2005-10-26 12:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
Israel should be 'wiped off the map': Iran president
TEHRAN (AFP) - Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has
openly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and lashed out
at Muslim nations who recognise the Jewish state.
"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world
oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference
in Tehran entitled: 'The World without Zionism' on Wednesday.
"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The
outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian
land," he thundered in a fiery speech on what he called an "historic
war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said
Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayatollah
Ruhollah Khomeini.
His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking
Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such
slogans are still regularly used at regime rallies.
Addressing some 4,000 students gathered in an interior ministry
conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity,
resistance and "the annihilation of the Zionist regime".
His mere appearance at the conference drew chants of "Death to
Israel", but Ahmadinejad quickly told students -- all of whom wore
black and were sporting green headbands -- to shout the slogan louder.
"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to
live in its heartland," said the president, an austere veteran of
Iran's hardline Revolutionary Guards who took office in August after
scoring a landslide win in a June presidential election.
"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means
he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad said,
telling Muslim leaders who recognise Israel that they "face the wrath
of their own people."
"We should not settle for a piece of land," he said of Israel's
pullout from the Gaza Strip.
His tone represents a dramatic change from that of former president
Mohammad Khatami, whose favoured topic was "dialogue among
civilisations" and who led an effort to improve Iran's relations with
the West.
Ahmadinejad instead spoke of an "historic war" between Islam and the
West.
"It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced.
Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years,
the world of Islam has been in retreat," he lamented.
"One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the
oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. They are
using it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic
world."
The term "oppressor" is used by the clerical regime to refer to the
United States, and in the plural form generally also includes Britain
and Israel.
The one-day conference, organised by an Islamic students' association,
also included a message from Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the head of the
Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah.
"We should gather all means to annihilate the regime which occupies
Qods (Jerusalem)," Nasrallah said in his message, read out by
Hezbollah's representative in Tehran.
Also featured was a six-man choir dressed in dark grey who gave some
harmonic renditions of Koranic verses. Prizes were also on offer for
the best Zionist caricature and in a letter-writing competition also
themed: "The world without Zionism".
The Tehran representative of the Palestinian militant group Hamas was
also present, while the ambassadors of Syria and the
Palestinian Authority put in a showing.
"We have a multitude of activities," event spokesman Saed Ramazan Ali
told AFP. "We want to acquaint Iranian students with the evil aims of
the Zionist regime."
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
Israel simply has no right to exist
Post by Johnny Asia
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy,
scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Ed
2005-10-26 22:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Asia
Israel should be 'wiped off the map': Iran president
Let them try. What is guaranteed is that if Iran DOES try to "wipe Israel
off the map" it will only mean the end of Iran.
Johnny Asia
2005-10-27 10:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Zimmet said Asia was at the heart of the crisis because of the
"Coca-Colanisation" of its culture, with traditional rice-based diets
increasingly replaced by fatty, sugar-laden Western foods.


"In Asia we're now seeing type two diabetes -- the adult form of the
disease -- in children for the first time," he said.

"More children are becoming obese because they're not taking any
physical activity at school. They're sitting at computers all day.

"Academic pressure has pushed physical activity out of school
curricula.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051027/hl_afp/healthfluasiadiabetes_051027080921


Diabetes trumps bird flu, AIDS as Asia's greatest health risk: WHO



SYDNEY (AFP) - Diabetes is a greater health problem in Asia than bird
flu and AIDS combined and has become a destructive "global
diabetes tsunami", a World Health Organisation (WHO) expert says.


Professor Paul Zimmet said while regional governments were
concentrating on the potential risk from the bird flu and AIDS/
HIV viruses, diabetes was already a silent epidemic in their midst.

"It's really slipped under the radar," Zimmet told AFP. "The rates of
diabetes in Asia now exceed those in Europe, where it has been seen as
more of a health problem.

"About five percent of the adult population in Europe has diabetes. In
Asia it's 10-12 percent and that goes up to 30-40 percent in the
Pacific island nations."

Zimmet, director of the WHO Collaborating Centre for Diabetes,
presented data to an international conference in the Thai capital
Bangkok this week showing diabetes kills twice as many people as
infectious diseases.

"This is a global diabetes tsunami, a catastrophe that will become the
health crisis of the 21st century and could reduce life expectancy
globally for the first time in 200 years," he said.

Zimmet said Asia was at the heart of the crisis because of the
"Coca-Colanisation" of its culture, with traditional rice-based diets
increasingly replaced by fatty, sugar-laden Western foods.

The professor, who also heads the Melbourne-based International
Diabetes Institute, said one of the most worrying trends about the
increase in diabetes was its prevalence among young people.

"In Asia we're now seeing type two diabetes -- the adult form of the
disease -- in children for the first time," he said.

"More children are becoming obese because they're not taking any
physical activity at school. They're sitting at computers all day.

"Academic pressure has pushed physical activity out of school
curricula."

Diabetes is caused by a problem with insulin, a hormone that
stimulates the body's cells into absorbing the energy source glucose
from the blood.

It can lead to blindness, nerve damage, heart problems and kidney
disease.

Type one diabetes develops in early childhood, while type two usually
occurs later in life and has been called the "lifestyle disease"
because of its links to obesity.

Zimmet said Asian governments were not taking the diabetes threat
seriously, although he praised moves by Singapore to increase exercise
rates among school students.

He said his own organisation, the WHO, was partly to blame because it
spent most of its resources on battling infectious diseases.

"They (governments) think 'well if the WHO isn't taking it seriously,
why should we?'," he said.

"Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people are dying from diabetes,
losing legs from diabetes, going blind from diabetes, having heart
attacks from diabetes and they are the highest costs to any healthcare
system."

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
AnonMoos
2005-10-28 06:43:18 UTC
Permalink
You sure are up on the latest trendy up-to-date terminology of thirty
years ago! Are you also wearing a dashiki with your Nehru jacket?
--
Hamas motto: &#1604;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1607; &#1604;&#1607;&#1605;
&#1573;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578;&#1548;
«&#1581;&#1605;&#1575;&#1587;» &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; (The death-worshipping cult)
Murderers are not martyrs! http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Johnny Asia
2005-10-27 12:06:38 UTC
Permalink
ABC News has footage of election fraud in Iraq
but didn't report it !

Martha Raddatz (ABC News) : "there are some irregularities
and I can tell you right now I witnessed them"
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/transcripts/transcript051021.html


Analysis: Week's developments in Iraq

GWEN IFILL, host: Now to Iraq. This was supposed to be another one of
those corner-turning moments--a successful constitutional referendum,
the prosecution of Saddam, or at least the beginning of it. Martha
Raddatz is just back--36 hours on the plane--from witnessing all of
this on the ground in Iraq.

Was it the definitive week the administration was hoping for, Martha?

Ms. MARTHA RADDATZ (ABC News): Oh, it certainly wasn't, particularly
with the constitution. I think that last weekend it seemed like such a
definitive time. There were so many people out voting. I was in a
Sunni neighborhood, and to see these people streaming into this
neighborhood to vote for the first time--I was in the Abu Ghraib
neighborhood of the infamous prison, but it's a Sunni-dominated
area--you had people there never before voted, coming forward, holding
up the finger proudly and all saying, `No, no, no, we didn't vote for
the constitution.' What's hard here, however, is we still do not know
the definitive results. It was supposed to be out in a couple of days,
but there are some irregularities and I can tell you right now I
witnessed them. When we went into the polling places--and it was
interesting, the first polling place wouldn't let cameras in. The
second one was, `Come on in, come on in.' I thought, `This'll change
under democracy. We'll come back in four years. This'll never happen
again.' We were behind the voting booth. My cameraman was back there
and there was a man who took seven ballots, at least, because we have
it on camera and marked yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes...

IFILL: One guy?

Ms. RADDATZ: One guy and he wasn't the only one. And as my cameraman
pointed out, we were only in there 20 minutes and we saw a variety of
people...

Ms. RADDATZ: Yeah. And folded up those ballots and handed them to the
man who was taking the ballots and he happily stuffed them in there.
But...


Ms. RADDATZ: That's right. So those kind of irregularities and there
were some neighborhoods where, I believe, up in Irbil or somewhere up
north there was 99 percent voted yes. When you get over 90 percent,
you start thinking something might be up. So that's going to take a
while. And the hard part here as well is once the election commission
comes out and says, `This is how it was. There were or were not
irregularities,' whether that sticks with the populations--again,
especially the Sunnis and the Sunni Arabs have been largely
responsible for the insurgency and felt this disaffected by this--if
it passes, there are these irregularities, they see our film, that's
going to be trouble.


+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-11-06 02:53:10 UTC
Permalink
JDL Member Imprisoned in Bomb Plot Killed
By ALEX VEIGA, Associated Press Writer



LOS ANGELES - A Jewish Defense League activist imprisoned for his role
in a plot to bomb a California mosque and the office of a
Lebanese-American congressman was killed at a federal prison in
Phoenix, an FBI spokesman said Saturday.

Earl Krugel, 62, was killed in an assault Friday evening at the
Federal Correctional Institution, said FBI agent Richard Murray.

Murray wouldn't release further details but said federal authorities
had opened a homicide investigation.

Krugel's wife, Lola, of Los Angeles said FBI investigators told her an
inmate had struck her husband on the head from behind with a cement
block.

"Earl never saw it happening," she said. "He was exercising."

He had been at the medium-security prison for three days, according to
his sister Linda Krugel of Los Angeles.

Krugel, a former dental assistant from Reseda, and late JDL leader Irv
Rubin were arrested in 2001 and charged with conspiring to bomb the
King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and a field office of Republican Rep.
Darrell E. Issa, who is Lebanese-American.

Krugel pleaded guilty in 2003 to one count of conspiracy to violate
the civil rights of worshippers at the mosque and one count of
carrying an explosive device in connection with a conspiracy to impede
or injure an office of the United States.

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to some neo-Flamenco guitar by Johnny Asia:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2126299

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Johnny Asia
2005-11-06 11:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Records one historian,

’The first millennium of Jewish history as presented in the Bible has
no empirical foundation whatsoever.’
(Cantor, The Sacred Chain, p 51)


The Israelites did not come from Egypt but emerged from the local
population.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/jews.htm


There was no ancient 'Jewish Empire'. Jerusalem in 10th century BC
was barely a village of mud and brick huts and cave dwellings.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/david.htm


Kings David and Solomon are purely mythical characters -
warrior/priest heroes, invented in the 6th century BC.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/solomon.htm


Herod the Great was a real king – but he did not massacre any babies.
He was an astute and successful ruler. His massive building program
included the so-called 'Wailing Wall', erroneously ascribed to
'Solomon'.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/myth.html#herod

+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

Listen to some neo-Flamenco guitar by Johnny Asia:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2126299

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
AnonMoos
2005-11-06 12:32:02 UTC
Permalink
It wasn't much of an "empire", but there were a few decades in the
900's B.C. when both Egypt and Mesopotamia (Assyria, etc.) were weak
and without much international "reach", while the Israelites were
united with some good military leaders, so that the Israelites managed
to get most of the surrounding small states to acknowledge at least
nominal Israelite suzerainty or overlordship (for whatever that
amounted to in practical terms -- not much in some cases, probably),
there was a productive alliance between the Israelites and the
Phoenician city-state of Tyre, and the Israelites even established a
trading outpost on the Upper Euphrates, near the bend in the river in
northern Syria. None of your minimalist nonsense (or "minimihilism"
as I like to call it) will change this.
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Johnny Asia
2006-01-27 12:50:22 UTC
Permalink
As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting
New York Times; March 9, 2002.

By MICHAEL MASSING

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses.
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho.
And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a
mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation
was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling
nation.

Such startling propositions - the product of findings by
archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25
years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But
there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss
them with the laity - until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5
million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new
Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60
years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an
interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology,
philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the
editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest
efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the
Bible as a human rather than divine document.

"When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about
anything," said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of "When Bad Things
Happen to Good People" and a co-editor of the new book. "Today, they
are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and
history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible."

"Etz Hayim," compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in
Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text,
a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as
the author of "The Chosen"), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic
commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by
prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll
and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology.

These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at
Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For
instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology," by Robert
Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states
that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the
story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler
says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent
in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic
overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr.
Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic
Gilgamesh.

Equally striking for many readers will be the essay "Biblical
Archaeology," by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University
in Jerusalem. "There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's
sojourn in that country," he writes, "and the evidence that does exist
is negligible and indirect." The few indirect pieces of evidence, like
the use of Egyptian names, he adds, "are far from adequate to
corroborate the historicity of the biblical account."

Similarly ambiguous, Mr. Levine writes, is the evidence of the
conquest and settlement of Canaan, the ancient name for the area
including Israel. Excavations showing that Jericho was unwalled and
uninhabited, he says, "clearly seem to contradict the violent and
complete conquest portrayed in the Book of Joshua." What's more, he
says, there is an "almost total absence of archaeological evidence"
backing up the Bible's grand descriptions of the Jerusalem of David
and Solomon.

The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less
settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David
Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to
"Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark
airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his
synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern
archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is
not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi
offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative,
including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and
the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said,
archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes
of Israel - not one shard of pottery."




Records one historian,

’The first millennium of Jewish history as presented in the Bible has
no empirical foundation whatsoever.’
(Cantor, The Sacred Chain, p 51)


The Israelites did not come from Egypt but emerged from the local
population.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/jews.htm


There was no ancient 'Jewish Empire'. Jerusalem in 10th century BC
was barely a village of mud and brick huts and cave dwellings.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/david.htm


Kings David and Solomon are purely mythical characters -
warrior/priest heroes, invented in the 6th century BC.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/solomon.htm


Herod the Great was a real king – but he did not massacre any babies.
He was an astute and successful ruler. His massive building program
included the so-called 'Wailing Wall', erroneously ascribed to
'Solomon'.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/myth.html#herod



Israel was invented by British theologians and politicians:


BRITISH LITERALIST FOREIGN POLICY

The British Literalists--strong among the Anglican Evangelicals and in
various Nonconformist churches--were not about to abandon their hopes
of converting Jews and sending them to Palestine to meet their
Messiah, especially not around 1840, when the current British policy
of offering protection to Jews living in Palestine raised great
expectations among the the premillennialists. Indeed, Literalist
influence was unofficially helping to shape that policy. An ardent
Literalist, Lord Ashley (later the Earl of Shaftesbury), was stepson-
in-law and confidant of Lord Palmerston, the British foreign
secretary. Ashley had private hopes of bringing about, through British
action, the restoration of Israel to Palestine in preparation for the
Second Advent. In 1840 he prodded Palmerston, by adducing political
reasons, into seeking international backing for Jewish migration to
Palestine, while he confided to his diary his own very different
motives, which were distinctly religious:

Dined with Palmerston. After dinner left alone with him.
Propounded my scheme, which seemed to strike his fancy . . . .
Palmerston has already been chosen by God to be an instrument of good
to His ancient people; to do homage, as it were, to their inheritance,
and to recognise their rights without believing their destiny . . . .
I am forced to argue politically, financially, commercially; these
considerations strike him home; he weeps not like his Master over
Jerusalem, nor prays that now, at last, she may put on her beautiful
garments.[1]

Ashley's influence was likewise behind the establishment of a
consulate in Jerusalem in 1838, also the creating of an Anglican
bishopric there in 1841 and the appointment to it of a Jewish
Christian bishop. On October 16, 1841, he wrote in his diary: "Where
would the Sultan's permission [to build the bishop's church] have been
without Palmerston's vigour in consequence of my repeated and earnest
representations?"[2]

But Ashley's dream of a British-sponsored and treaty-protected Jewish
migration to Palestine did not materialize. The four-power treaty of
1840 ignored the matter. Even the Jews themselves showed little
interest; more than half a century passed before Zionism arose.

[p. 4] Nevertheless, 20th-century British policy in the Middle East
owed something to the prophetic interpretation of the Literalists of
the 1830s and 1840s.

As one recent writer has put it:

Lord Shaftesbury's adventure marks the point when events began
leading logically toward the [Palestine] Mandate. . . .

Palmerston['s Middle Eastern policies] mark the beginning of
official British intervention on behalf of the "Jewish nation" and of
its resettlement in Palestine. . . .

Ashley had not labored in vain. . . . All these events centering
in the Holy Land [including "the visionary prospects aroused by the
Evangelical craze for conversion of the Jews and the Jerusalem
bishopric"] combined to create almost a proprietary feeling about
Palestine. The idea of a British annex there through the medium of a
British-sponsored restoration of Israel began to appeal to other minds
than Ashley's.[3]

[1] Anthony Ashley, Earl of Shaftesbury, Diary entries, quoted in
Edwin Hodder, The Life and Work of the Seventh Earl of Shaftesbury,
vol. 1, pp. 310, 311. Ashley was the one referred to, but not named
(in London Times, Aug. 17, 1840, p. 3, col. 5), as the promoter of
western-sponsored Jewish migration to Palestine.

[2] Hodder, op. cit., vol. 1, p. 377 (cf. pp. 370, 374). See also
Harold Temperley, England and the Near East: The Crimea (1936), p.
443, note 275; Barbara W. Tuchman, Bible and Sword (1956, 1968), chap.
10.

[3] Tuchman, op. cit. (1968 ed.), pp. xi, 197, 208.
+

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944


"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html

NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
Ed
2006-01-27 22:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Whatever. It was founded.... that's all that matters. You don't have to
like the basis on which Israel was founded, but it was, and it exists no
matter what.

"Palestine" on the other hand, was NEVER "founded."
Paulo Gomes Jardim
2006-01-28 01:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed
Whatever. It was founded.... that's all that matters. You don't have to
like the basis on which Israel was founded, but it was, and it exists no
matter what.
US occupation of Iraq also exists no matter what.
Iraqis are doing their best to resolve that situation, against all and
everyone, including resorting to violence against the occuppier, something
every major political party in Iraq recognizes is a legitimate right of
every Iraqi.
The same would go to Palestine. Even if Zionist occupation of Palestine
exists no matter what, it's still an inherent right of every Palestinian
to fight the occupier, violentely or otherwise, and they are doing just
that.
Post by Ed
"Palestine" on the other hand, was NEVER "founded."
And Palestinians are working hard to "found" it.
So, what was your point?
--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)
Ed
2006-01-28 02:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Whatever. It was founded.... that's all that matters. You don't have to
like the basis on which Israel was founded, but it was, and it exists no
matter what.
US occupation of Iraq also exists no matter what.
Iraqis are doing their best to resolve that situation, against all and
everyone, including resorting to violence against the occuppier, something
every major political party in Iraq recognizes is a legitimate right of
every Iraqi.
The same would go to Palestine. Even if Zionist occupation of Palestine
exists no matter what, it's still an inherent right of every Palestinian
to fight the occupier, violentely or otherwise, and they are doing just
that.
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong? The
Palestinians already have a homeland. It's called "Jordan" and all they
need to do is to go there. Otherwise, they should decide to become law
abiding Israelis.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
"Palestine" on the other hand, was NEVER "founded."
And Palestinians are working hard to "found" it.
So, what was your point?
It will NEVER be "founded" based on the goal of eliminating Israel.
Paulo Gomes Jardim
2006-01-28 03:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Whatever. It was founded.... that's all that matters. You don't have to
like the basis on which Israel was founded, but it was, and it exists no
matter what.
US occupation of Iraq also exists no matter what.
Iraqis are doing their best to resolve that situation, against all and
everyone, including resorting to violence against the occuppier, something
every major political party in Iraq recognizes is a legitimate right of
every Iraqi.
The same would go to Palestine. Even if Zionist occupation of Palestine
exists no matter what, it's still an inherent right of every Palestinian
to fight the occupier, violentely or otherwise, and they are doing just
that.
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong?
The land of Askhenazi is Europe, just to name the major and most influent
ethnic group. Other would be from Africa, Asia, and other Middle east
countries, and teh same would apply: They are there as invaders and
colonizers.
Those of good will who could behave as polite guests on other's land never
had any problem on being accepted, but unfortunatelly the vast majority
came there to steal that land for themselves. As a guest that enters one's
house with the purpose of thievery and murder, they should be combated and
expelled from that territory.
Post by Ed
The
Palestinians already have a homeland. It's called "Jordan" and all they
need to do is to go there. Otherwise, they should decide to become law
abiding Israelis.
All Palestine is Palestinian homeland, it always has been.
There's no need to create another homeland on some artificial entity
elsewhere.
Askhenazi Jews, on the other hand, already had their hown homelands in
Germany, Austria, Russia, Italy, Hungary, etc. That's where those
Askhenazi Jews who don't want to live among Arab Palestinians should be
deported to, when a unified state finally emerges.
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
"Palestine" on the other hand, was NEVER "founded."
And Palestinians are working hard to "found" it.
So, what was your point?
It will NEVER be "founded" based on the goal of eliminating Israel.
Yes, it will. In the end of this proccess, hopefully, Israel will be wiped
out as a political entity, and a new unified country will emerge. Those
who still want to live by apartheid and racist rules should be deported to
the countries where them or their families came from.
--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)
Ed
2006-01-28 14:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Whatever. It was founded.... that's all that matters. You don't have to
like the basis on which Israel was founded, but it was, and it exists no
matter what.
US occupation of Iraq also exists no matter what.
Iraqis are doing their best to resolve that situation, against all and
everyone, including resorting to violence against the occuppier, something
every major political party in Iraq recognizes is a legitimate right of
every Iraqi.
The same would go to Palestine. Even if Zionist occupation of Palestine
exists no matter what, it's still an inherent right of every Palestinian
to fight the occupier, violentely or otherwise, and they are doing just
that.
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong?
The land of Askhenazi is Europe, just to name the major and most influent
ethnic group. Other would be from Africa, Asia, and other Middle east
countries, and teh same would apply: They are there as invaders and
colonizers.
No more than any other group that went from one country to another.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Those of good will who could behave as polite guests on other's land never
had any problem on being accepted, but unfortunatelly the vast majority
came there to steal that land for themselves.
They BOUGHT the land, with their OWN money, from the Ottomans who were the
previous owners of the land.

As a guest that enters one's
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
house with the purpose of thievery and murder, they should be combated and
expelled from that territory.
PLEASE provide proof that was the PURPOSE of those who emigrated to Israel.
(I'm not holding my breath waiting for an answer)
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
The
Palestinians already have a homeland. It's called "Jordan" and all they
need to do is to go there. Otherwise, they should decide to become law
abiding Israelis.
All Palestine is Palestinian homeland, it always has been.
Well, not according to the Partition Plan, not according to the UN.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
There's no need to create another homeland on some artificial entity
elsewhere.
But that homeland already exists. For Arabs, it's called Jordan. For Jews,
it's called Israel.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Askhenazi Jews, on the other hand, already had their hown homelands in
Germany, Austria, Russia, Italy, Hungary, etc.
SO did a whole bunch of English, Italians, Irish, Koreans, Chinese,
Russians, Polish, and every single other nationality who left those lands to
make a new homeland called AMERICA.



That's where those
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Askhenazi Jews who don't want to live among Arab Palestinians should be
deported to, when a unified state finally emerges.
You got that totally opposite, sir. It's the Arab Palestinians who don't
want Jews living among them. The Jews who moved to the area were always
willing to let the Arabs of the area live among them; as long as they live
as law abiding people. Instead, the Arab Palestinians chose murder, terror
and corruption. Would you want that as YOUR neighbor?


SO did a whole bunch of English, Italians, Irish, Koreans, Chinese,
Russians, Polish, and every single other nationality who left those lands to
make a new homeland called AMERICA.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
"Palestine" on the other hand, was NEVER "founded."
And Palestinians are working hard to "found" it.
So, what was your point?
It will NEVER be "founded" based on the goal of eliminating Israel.
Yes, it will. In the end of this proccess, hopefully, Israel will be wiped
out as a political entity, and a new unified country will emerge. Those
who still want to live by apartheid and racist rules should be deported to
the countries where them or their families came from.
--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)
Paulo Gomes Jardim
2006-01-28 16:43:07 UTC
Permalink
[..]
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong?
The land of Askhenazi is Europe, just to name the major and most influent
ethnic group. Other would be from Africa, Asia, and other Middle east
countries, and teh same would apply: They are there as invaders and
colonizers.
No more than any other group that went from one country to another.
And who was fought at by native populations, until one of the parties
would surrender.
That's what is happening now, just as Jabotinsky and other Zionists had
rightfully predicted.
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Those of good will who could behave as polite guests on other's land never
had any problem on being accepted, but unfortunatelly the vast majority
came there to steal that land for themselves.
They BOUGHT the land, with their OWN money, from the Ottomans who were the
previous owners of the land.
Initially they bought the land from Ottoman feudal lords, who were also
invaders on their own. On their case, however, since there was no attempt
to colonize the region with Turks, these simbolic ownership was tolerated.
On the case of Jews the purpose was exactly to colonize the region, thus
they were fought at and still are.
Post by Ed
As a guest that enters one's
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
house with the purpose of thievery and murder, they should be combated and
expelled from that territory.
PLEASE provide proof that was the PURPOSE of those who emigrated to Israel.
(I'm not holding my breath waiting for an answer)
Read Jabotinsky and Herzl.
It's not exactly a secret, you know.

"There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the
Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning
people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago
the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the
Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab
country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general
understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example
when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the
native population. Such an event has never occurred.

The natives will always struggle obstinately against the colonists – and
it is all the same whether they are cultured or uncultured. The comrades
in arms of [Hernan] Cortez or [Francisco] Pizarro conducted themselves
like brigands. The Redskins fought with uncompromising fervor against both
evil and good-hearted colonizers. The natives struggled because any kind
of colonization anywhere at anytime is inadmissible to any native people.

Any native people view their country as their national home, of which they
will be complete masters. They will never voluntarily allow a new master.
So it is for the Arabs. Compromisers among us try to convince us that the
Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked with hidden formulations
of our basic goals. I flatly refuse to accept this view of the Palestinian
Arabs.

They have the precise psychology that we have. They look upon Palestine
with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon
his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people will struggle
against colonizers until the last spark of hope that they can avoid the
dangers of conquest and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians
will struggle in this way until there is hardly a spark of hope.

It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization.
Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by
every Jew and by every Arab. Colonization has only one goal. This is in
the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been
necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian
Arabs and the same condition exists now."

Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall – “O Zheleznoi Stene” – Rassvet, November 4, 1923
quoted from the Hidden History of Zionism, from Ralph Schoenman.
--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)
Ed
2006-01-28 17:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
[..]
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong?
The land of Askhenazi is Europe, just to name the major and most influent
ethnic group. Other would be from Africa, Asia, and other Middle east
countries, and teh same would apply: They are there as invaders and
colonizers.
No more than any other group that went from one country to another.
And who was fought at by native populations, until one of the parties
would surrender.
That's what is happening now, just as Jabotinsky and other Zionists had
rightfully predicted.
It's how nations are formed, good or bad. It's just historical fact,
period.

And that the Jews have the strongest historical claim to that land is also
fact, period.
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Those of good will who could behave as polite guests on other's land never
had any problem on being accepted, but unfortunatelly the vast majority
came there to steal that land for themselves.
They BOUGHT the land, with their OWN money, from the Ottomans who were the
previous owners of the land.
Initially they bought the land from Ottoman feudal lords, who were also
invaders on their own. On their case, however, since there was no attempt
to colonize the region with Turks, these simbolic ownership was tolerated.
On the case of Jews the purpose was exactly to colonize the region, thus
they were fought at and still are.
Call it what you will.... it's a long overdue correction of a serious wrong
committed against the original owners of the land, the Jews. :-)
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
As a guest that enters one's
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
house with the purpose of thievery and murder, they should be combated and
expelled from that territory.
PLEASE provide proof that was the PURPOSE of those who emigrated to Israel.
(I'm not holding my breath waiting for an answer)
Read Jabotinsky and Herzl.
It's not exactly a secret, you know.
"There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the
Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning
people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago
the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the
Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab
country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general
understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example
when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the
native population. Such an event has never occurred.
The natives will always struggle obstinately against the colonists - and
it is all the same whether they are cultured or uncultured. The comrades
in arms of [Hernan] Cortez or [Francisco] Pizarro conducted themselves
like brigands. The Redskins fought with uncompromising fervor against both
evil and good-hearted colonizers. The natives struggled because any kind
of colonization anywhere at anytime is inadmissible to any native people.
Any native people view their country as their national home, of which they
will be complete masters. They will never voluntarily allow a new master.
So it is for the Arabs. Compromisers among us try to convince us that the
Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked with hidden formulations
of our basic goals. I flatly refuse to accept this view of the Palestinian
Arabs.
They have the precise psychology that we have. They look upon Palestine
with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon
his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people will struggle
against colonizers until the last spark of hope that they can avoid the
dangers of conquest and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians
will struggle in this way until there is hardly a spark of hope.
It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization.
Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by
every Jew and by every Arab. Colonization has only one goal. This is in
the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been
necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian
Arabs and the same condition exists now."
Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall - "O Zheleznoi Stene" - Rassvet, November 4,
1923
quoted from the Hidden History of Zionism, from Ralph Schoenman.
--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)
Ben Cramer
2006-01-29 00:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
[..]
Post by Ed
Post by Paulo Gomes Jardim
Post by Ed
Silly boy, how can Israel's occupying it's own land be wrong?
The land of Askhenazi is Europe, just to name the major and most influent
ethnic group. Other would be from Africa, Asia, and other Middle east
countries, and teh same would apply: They are there as invaders and
colonizers.
No more than any other group that went from one country to another.
And who was fought at by native populations, until one of the parties
would surrender.
That's what is happening now, just as Jabotinsky and other Zionists had
rightfully predicted.
It's how nations are formed, good or bad. It's just historical fact,
period.
And that the Jews have the strongest historical claim to that land is also
fact, period.
Bollocks. It's only you land grabbing and deluded cunts who think that is
so. 6 billion others see it quite differently.

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